Defining "comics"""

Discuss the future, present and past of sequential art.

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Post by Tailsteak »

Sandy: I would say that last example you posted isn't a comic because the images aren't doing the lion's share of the communicative work.

--Doc MacDougall, emphasis mine.
The lion's share... I think that's an important idea. A movie can use static images or text in places to convey emotion, but it's still the motion that tells the story. Similarly, that recent bank robbery animated Gif comic used moving scenes, but it was still the images and their relative positions that told most of the story.

Fans, during the storyline where Shanna was imprisoned, used soundclips. Fans is not a radio drama. Faraway Stars, during its exciting scenes, used animation. Faraway Stars is not a cartoon.

I propose that whatever our definition of comics, we must qualify it with a reference to the medium that conveys the main part of the information/emotion, and not pretend that a comic is exclusively and absolutely words and pictures.

The "End of the World" story (which was really great, by the way) was illustrated prose because the text conveyed the lion's share of the story. It would work without the pictures, but not without the words. If it had been the other way around, it would have been a comic.
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Post by Jack Masters »

Can someone remind me what was wrong with McCloud's definition in the first place?
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Post by Jason Tocci »

On 2001-12-08 14:03, Jack Masters wrote:
Can someone remind me what was wrong with McCloud's definition in the first place?

1. The definition suggested in Understanding Comics includes certain works that most people do not consider comics. (Such works include Egyptian wall paintings, the Bayeux Tapestry, and some pillar with a bas relief spiralling up it. And by "most people" I mean the majority of people in this country who would care to define comics: readers and potential readers of comics, creators of comics, and members of the academic community -- including those professors who study comics and include them in their curricula.)

2. The definition suggested in Understanding Comics does NOT include certain works that most people DO consider comics. (Such works include single panel cartoons like The Far Side and Family Circus.)


Mind you, I really admire Scott's work (ESPECIALLY Understanding and Reinventing), and I have quoted the man in so many papers during my undergraduate career that you'd think I have a crush on him. I definitely think he's onto something with his idea that comics and the Bayeux Tapestry are part of the same artform. I just don't think that artform can be called "comics."

And also, I have gotten the impression that Scott doesn't mind at all when people try to take a stab at redefining or clarifying the definition of comics. Which is cool.


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Post by glych »

hhmmm....

okay, okay- I was too vague...

scott's definition is close, but I agree that it lacks single paneled cartoons as comics...

and I was thinking about "the lion's share" argument...

I did a flash "cartoon" for my fanale for mine and Damonk's crossover way yonder back (<a href="http://glych.keenspace.com/d/20010318.html">Here</a> -I think..not sure...)

The majority of the storytelling is done with static images in order...<i>but</i> the music really <i>really</i> helps the aestetic response...

So...is it a comic?

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Post by gazorenzoku »

I feel that the main soul of a comic is that movement from one static moment to the next. The magic of the comic is that transition. So, Scott's definition works just fine for me.

However, it doesn't seem like anyone can come to a conscensous, so what about a compromise?

We could create our own word, instead of our own definition.

or we could create a brand new way of classifying the entire comic and comic related world instead of arguing over what gets to be included in the definition.

it seems that we all (including myself) really want to have the things we like and/or think of as comics included in the definition of comics.

anyone with their own personal idea left out will feel bad, and we don't want that.

sooooo, whatabout creating some sort of new classification system in which the bulk of the people participating in this string would be able to include their input into?

here is a clumbsily constructed example from a very sleepy guy:

COMICS
1)Sequential Art
a) the things commonly refered to as "Comic Books"
b) Online Comics
c) Comic Strips
d) Aztec calandars, etc.
2) One Panel Works
a) stuff like Far Side
b) other stuff that I can't think of right now...
3) Experimental works
a) 3d
b) works with motion
c) i am sure there must be more that goes here....


anyhow, some comic works would obviously fit into more than one catagory, so that is not the perfect model. but the general idea could be stand to be considered... maybe...

each subcatagory of comics would come with a little explination on why it is exists in the larger catagory of comics. for example, a one shot farside would have something about words used with images, with a clear explanation on why pop art with words and images is not comics (hazy idea from a hazy man). anyhow, my logic might be off, but the spirit of compromise is meant to be there...

oh, yeah, each subcatagory of the above list would require a definition, and maybe the subcatagories could be renamed with new words that we feel are more appropriate.

as for new stuff that comes up, I believe someone brought up the very good point of how to fit new stuff into catagories in the future... but couldn't that be handled in the future?

if only everyone was a little bit more compromise oriented now, i am sure that future problems could be resolved easily. the problem is that some people don't want stuff to be included, and others do. i think one good way to handle this is to keep things seperate in a sort of classification system like the one i introduced above, but now I am repeating myself...

anyhow, if this kind of compromise doesn't work, can someone else come up with another compromise?

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Post by Tailsteak »

Okay, here are some points that have been suggested or implied:

1- You gotta have static images. It can be as simple as a smily face, but some kinda picture (even,in some rare cases, wordart) has to be there.

2- There has to be the progression of a situation, even if only in the mind of the audience. There's a situation in a photo, but unless an immediate past or future is implied, it's not a comic. The mountains have progression, yes, but not a situation. It's just a series of pictures with no common thread.

3- The images have to do the main part of the work. You can add in animations, sounds and possibly even textures and smells, but the images have to tell the story.

So, then, how about this:

Comics: A means of expressing a situation in time, primarily using images.
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Post by Jack Masters »

So, then, how about this:

Comics: A means of expressing a situation in time, primarily using images.
Not all directional sequences involve time. Subject-to-Subject, Scene-to-Scene, Aspect-to-Aspect, and Non-Sequitor, fully two thirds of the panel transition types, are not time-based. Additionally, you forgot to mention juxtaposition.

I assume by "a situation in time" you mean the progression of a situation through time, or time passing in a situation. Most normal situations are assumed to occur "within" time, so your definition would seem to include say, paintings of dogs playing poker.
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Post by gazorenzoku »

state to state?
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Post by gazorenzoku »

last time i tried to copy and paste from microsoft word, the commas and quotes all became strange symbols... hope that doesn't happen this time...

---Compromising---


So, some people think Scott McCloud?fs definition is fine, and some people don?ft. The arguments for both sides have been heard, and still no consensus. Some people may be more comfortable with no consensus, and may prefer a situation in which an on going debate is possible. That is definitely one valid way of proceeding.

Another valid way, and the one I personally prefer, is compromise. As a side note, I recognize that the chance to debate, the chance to change the rules, the chance to reevaluate and add new things to definitions is important. I am not suggesting that we write anything in stone, now or ever. I am, however, suggesting that we get a rough draft prepared. The way I see it, there are 2 basic ways a compromise could be achieved. But first, why compromise?

The definition of comics in and of itself, though important, is not as important as the ability for us to come together as a group. If comics is to succeed in ?ggrowing up?h in the public eye, then I feel we, the people who give our lives to creating and reading comics of the ?gnew school?h (basically, anyone who has made the jump of accepting that comics can be more than they were, and are), need to present a unified face to the world. This does not mean that we all have to agree with each other, just that we have to agree about some things within certain parameters.

What should those parameters be? Well, if the parameter is really broad, like the basic definition of comics, it doesn?ft seem like we will ever be able to reach a consensus. So, the parameters need to be a little bit narrower, letting the big picture take its shape on its own. On to the 2 ways that I see us being able to compromise, and thus become a strong and unified group of creators.

One method is to provide an expanded definition of comics within which groups of definitions exist. This is what I was trying to propose last night, but maybe it didn?ft make all that much sense.

The world of comics can be big enough for us all, if we let it. The first step is for everyone, without exception, to accept that the things that they personally feel are not comics <i>do</i> have a place in the larger world of comics. Then, with these worlds sectioned off, everyone can feel comfortable in their own world.

(I understand that this is a sacrifice that might be difficult to make, but if we do not, it seems that there will never be a unified ?gNew Comic?h world. For those of us concerned with comics image and growth, especially growth, it seems that without a consensus that new comic will never have the support it needs)

Returning from the parenthesis world, on with a practical explination of how this first method of compromise might work:

Based on the statement I made before the parenthesis, one might be able to say, ?gI am a S-type comic artist. I create and enjoy reading comics of the S-type.?h This theoretical S-type could be sequential art comics, ruling out things like far side. Within the S-type, a place could exist for those who feel that Aztec calendars and what not are not comics, and a place for the opposition. Thus, ?gI am a S-A-type comic artist/reader/researcher.?h

Easy to remember words could be used to describe these separate camps, so the academic world and the general public would enjoy a greater understanding of the entire comics world and all of its subsections. Of course there will be overlapping and people who don?ft even care about the differences between the subcategories. Overlapping can be handled by stating at the outset that there is overlapping, and that it is ok. In a case of overlapping, the modern comic scholar could simply recognize and make note of that overlapping and no problems will occur. As for people who don?ft care, well, they don?ft really matter to the hard core ?gdefinitionists?h, do they?

Ok, after that rather lengthy description, here is what I see to be the second way we could resolve this debate and stay unified:

We could all agree to disagree. Groups could be formed, filled by people with common ideas about what comics should be. This is pretty much the same as the first alternative, except instead of saying ?gI am an S-type comic artist/reader,?h one would define comics by the S-type prototype, and use the word comics to refer to their way of thinking about comics. This would thus be a little more confusing because the same word, ?gcomics?h would be used differently in each group.

The task of comics researchers would be to organize the definitions of each group and chart out their similarities and differences. Of course each group could make its own ideology public for ease of research, and it would also be in the best interest of each group to do so in order to gain as much of the public/academic eye as possible. In fact, the groups who are the most successful at doing so might have the biggest say in what the public/academic world accepts as comics in the future (assuming that we are able to change the ideas in the public/academic world, which seems to already be happening, but very slooooooooowly)

Of course, in either method of compromise, new ideas are bound to crop up, and the door to discussion and reform should always be open.

If we, as creators, are to double as researchers in the task of bringing New Comics into the public/academic eye, then it is my feeling that we need to work better together. I want to stress again that this doesn?ft mean at all that we all have to agree, just that we have to be a little bit <I>more unified in deciding how to disagree.</I>

Of course, some might feel that disagreeing is part of the fun of living. I enjoy a good discussion too, but sometimes a good discussion can also mean sorting out how to synthesize opposing thoughts into a unified continuum.

That is what I personally feel is important for us to do at this time. If anyone else has other ways that they think a compromise can be reached, then I would love to hear them (I don?ft say that sarcastically or as a challenge, I would really love to hear them).

Thanks for listening to a rambling man...

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Post by gazorenzoku »

darn it, those strange symbols poped up where the quotes and commas should be again..... sorry.......

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Post by glych »

like I said- my original definition is pretty broad...

But I like what's coming out of this (hey Greg- you still reading this thread?)

g-...you sure do type a lot.

Quality vs Quantity, you know?

But you do have some good points too.

Compromise is defidently an issue, but we're a stubborn crowd- and i think if we're going to compromise we should do it fairly...

Maybe take all the definitions that have been made so far, find the top 5, and have a good ol' fashion poll of what we like and don't like out of those definitions, refining them into one- and vwala!

^_^

Sound good? no?

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Post by gazorenzoku »

On 2001-12-10 01:06, glych wrote:


g-...you sure do type a lot.

Quality vs Quantity, you know?

But you do have some good points too.

Compromise is defidently an issue, but we're a stubborn crowd- and i think if we're going to compromise we should do it fairly...

Maybe take all the definitions that have been made so far, find the top 5, and have a good ol' fashion poll of what we like and don't like out of those definitions, refining them into one- and vwala!

^_^

Sound good? no?

-glych
That certainly is along the lines of compromise. I am glad you brought it up, because it made me realize that what is going on here is a chance for us to describe the phenomenon of comics.

In other words, us voting on a definition won't alter the actual comics that have been made in the past, or ones to come in the future.

Voting would be a positive thing in that it would allow us to form a unified group, but it misses the mark in terms of describing reality. In other words, if we vote, we vote to create our own reality. If we choose to dsscribe what is going on in the world, then we can have something to offer to the scholastic community as well as being able to preserve our own unity as a group.

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Post by gazorenzoku »

Compromise is defidently an issue, but we're a stubborn crowd- and i think if we're going to compromise we should do it fairly...
I hope that all future decisions will be fair. However, I fail to see how my proposal is unfair. It might be flawed in other ways, and probably is, but not fair? In fact, I feel it is incredibly fair for the following reasons:

1) <b>Everyone</b> involved will be allowed input.
2) <b>Mass rule</b> will not over power <b>individual opinion </b>
3) A <b>true discription</b> of the comics world <i> as it is</i> (seperate from how we might <i>want it to be</i>) will be made available for the public & academic arenas.

Having said that, I understand that there may be better methods of compromise. Personally I am against voting, but if that is what everyone wants, then that is what will occur.

As a side note, is anyone interested in maping out the world of comics in a way similar to the methods I described in the long message above? Whether this group can come to a decision or not, I am begining to feel that the sort of catagorizing that I was talking about above could be a great endevor for the academic side of the comics world.

I am interested in taking the time to put together such a system. In doing so, we would need to get input from a whole lot of people, including people who have little or no knowledge about the current state of so-called "comics reform". Their opinion is important too.

I am open to suggestions on alterations that could be made to the system I described above. If anyone wants to work with me on this sort of thing, maybe we should take the work to a different arena so as not to interfere with the defining process going on here.

Please contact me if interested. I really look forward to working with someone on this. (To all of the people I have had the fortune of debating with: I urge you especially to work with me on this. Ideas get nowhere without some opposition to help them along)

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Post by gazorenzoku »

On 2001-12-06 08:05, sandy carruthers wrote:
Last comment. Promise. Is this a comic?

http://www.sandycarruthers.com/the%20en ... 20near.pdf

I don't consider this a comic.

sorry not to get back to you right away, sandy...

my gut tells me that this is not what i would call a comic. however, i would be willing to concede that it could belong to a larger family of art that involves comics, if someone made a convincing argument for it.

However, since you yourself don't want to call it a comic, maybe it's best to just leave it at that until a decision on definitions is reached...

By the way, I really liked it.

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: gazorenzoku on 2001-12-10 04:59 ]</font>
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Post by Tailsteak »

Perhaps "situation" was the wrong word. I didn't mean a "scene", since many one panel comics are simply a comparison between two objects, or a hybrid that seems amusing. Perhaps a better choice of words would be "concept" or "statement, or statements".

Here's a little something I think is worth mentioning... I once saw a braille book in which the story of a rolling ball was told in touch-pictures. It was virtually indsicernable to the naked eye, but to trained fingers, it was a series of pictures that told a story.

Comic?
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Post by gazorenzoku »

On 2001-12-10 16:12, Tailsteak wrote:
It was virtually indsicernable to the naked eye, but to trained fingers, it was a series of pictures that told a story.

Comic?
sure, why not?
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Post by Jason Tocci »

I realized something since the last time I was in here. Today I read a "wordless novel" in the library, a novel made of woodcut prints by Lynd Ward. It was called Wild Pilgrimage and it was really good.

While reading it, I realized that my brain processed it in the exact same way it processes a comic book or comic strip. And, by extension, those little safety cards they give you on airplanes. And any other sequence of images, with or without words, in print or on a wall, whatever.

This is not what I realized. I knew that already. But being aware of the experience as it happened made me realize something.

It doesn't matter if Wild Pilgrimage is a comic or not. It really doesn't matter.

If you want to write a paper on "comics in various cultures," just make sure you state clearly what you mean by comics before you get into it. Because when I say comics, I mean works that follow some or all of the conventions of the modern comics tradition. When Scott McCloud says it, he means any work that is made of image sequences (whether "art" or purely utilitarian, like an airplane safety card). I prefer saying it my way because I think it's less confusing to the listener, since "comics" is a term that means too many things at once to be adequately defined. Like "game." (Try defining "game." It means too many things at once to be defined only one way. I think it's called a "compound concept" in that way, but maybe I misuse or forget the exact term.)

Maybe I knew all that already too. But really, the important thing to take away (I think) from McCloud's writing on the "history of comics" is not "this is the definition of comics," but "these works are essentially the same 'thing.'" Go read Wild Pilgrimage and see how true that is. It's fun.


Jason

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Post by Tailsteak »

Okay, here's a demonstration of what I meant by "scene".

Let's say you come to a nice little one-panel strip... let's say Randym Thoughts... and there, waiting for you, was this rather mediocre picture of an orange:

Image

"Hey," you'd say, "Where's my comic? Why is there only a picture of an orange?"

Because, of course, unless this is in the context of some sort of story about fruit, it is not a comic. It is a picture of an orange.

Now, let's say, that instead of that picture, you see this one:

Image

That, I would say, is a comic. It is a statement that orange=orange, an expression of pure redundancy, and thus amusing, at least to me. In mathematical terms, the first image is merely a variable, whereas the second is an equation, albeit one so simple as to be nonsensical.

It is a comic.
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Post by Jack Masters »

I'd agree that the second one is a comic and the first one is not, but doesn't it still fit McCloud's definition?

In this case the pictoral and other elements are the orange and word orange, they are juxtaposed, and there is deliberate sequence implied through the arrow. Actually, I personally would say it's the arrow that makes it a comic.
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Post by Greg Stephens »

Now, I don't want to start another "is this a comic" debate in this thread, but at face value, I don't know that I can accept either of those images as a comic. The first one is a picture of an orange and the second one is more of a diagram. I'd like to be inclusive in our definition, but I think this example is particularly problematic. Maybe we can shelve this example and then return to it later to see how it fits with whatever criteria we've come up with? Despite my gut reaction, it may turn out to be a comic after all.

Side thought- maybe our definition of comics ought to be done in comic form? Otherwise, are we just dancing about architecture?
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Post by Jack Masters »

I feel I should point out here that the word "comics" is not actually a comic, but a word.
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Post by fredirc »

On 2001-12-13 02:52, Jack Masters wrote:
I feel I should point out here that the word "comics" is not actually a comic, but a word.
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Post by Jack Masters »

It is simply too late to change the word at this point. Some things act as bridges between communitys, and some act as walls. The comics community has too many walls already, and making up new words for ourselves in place of old words that the rest of the world uses will only put up another one.

As for the "overuse" of humor:

First of all, are you maintaining that all the people who write humorious comic strips have been confused by the word into doing something they didn't want to do? That seems pretty implausible.

Second, there are tons of superhero comics out there that don't try to be funny at all. As the largest genre, you'd think they'd be the ones adhering to the original meaning of the word the most. Hm...

Third, the medium of comics just lends itself to humor in a way no other medium does, because you have the ability to freeze the essense of the comedic moment in time, in relation to what set it up, and people can see the whole thing simultaneously.

And folks, can we please stop with the talking face comics? I think it's pretty much assumed that you all have faces.
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