Bubble order

Wikkit · Post by **Wikkit** » Mon Apr 07, 2003 11:31 am

Does this annoy anybody else? He goes right-left right-left left-right left-right (or up-down up-down down-up down-up).

I e-mailed him and said it'd be more readable if he was more consistent, but he didn't reply. I don't know why I still have Real Life on my list.

losttoy · Post by **losttoy** » Tue Apr 08, 2003 1:36 pm

I could spend a live time finding poorly composed comics on the web and critiquing them by pointing out their weaknesses. I could say that an artist only drew one panel, only to change a character's head position in the second panel, keeping the same art in all four panels and editing the text in the bubbles which are also in a fixed position. If I look for negative things, I will find negative things. Although, I do not really believe this is what this forum is about. Yes, poorly placed word bubbles is agervating, but saying something here is pointless unless the artist was on this forum asking for critiques. Just my humble opinion.

Post by **Greg Stephens** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 7:36 pm

Yeah, Real Life's bubble positioning used to really annoy me, but I've found that I'm used to it by now and only read it wrong if he's really screwed up in some fashion. Still, for people who aren't used to it, it's disconcerting.

Real Life is a great example which illustrates how bubble positioning matters and what happens when you don't follow the rules, but also an example of how if you make up your own rules, then eventually people learn to follow them.

InkAddict · Post by **InkAddict** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 5:05 am

I find that with most comics, there is a "set" of rules you just follow, and it's more the "habit" of following the same rules, that makes you feel "at ease"...

As a bigtime comic reader (I used to read *5* *46-page* comics per day for *two* years), I can handle about anything... but now I find I get easily annoyed with some manga comics (the way some emotions aren't suggested but really flatly "symbolised" too obviously), while the bubbles on American Hero-comic splash-pages really "twist" a spectacular scene down to a bummer (You know the kind: when all good guys and bad guys jump up in the air, and while blasting eachother's head off, find enough time to exchange witty remarks... I spend so much time trying to piece together conversations I get bored in the middle of an action scene

)

That's why I'm getting afraid soon no-one here in Flanders (the dutch-speaking part of Belgium) will be able to appreciate *any* comics anymore. Most people read only the children's comics, and then let them go... When anyone reads only one type of comic, he has difficulty appreciating the other types... but when no-one *ever* reads a comic, chances they ever will again are getting smaller as time passes... until one day they find it's hard to "read" text and images at the same time, as my mother and grandfather have these problems...

Know of any other "comic illiterates" with this same problem?

BTW, the trick with "REAL LIFE" seems to read them "top-to-bottom", and ignore "left-to-right" or "right-to-left" completely... Then it seems rather consistant

Post by **Greg Stephens** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 11:23 am

Yingo wrote:BTW, the trick with "REAL LIFE" seems to read them "top-to-bottom", and ignore "left-to-right" or "right-to-left" completely... Then it seems rather consistant

Often, yes, but in the example Wikkit gave, the first two panels are clearly intended to be read top to bottom while in the last two panels it doesn't seem to really make any difference. Also, the balloon sizes are so large in those panels that they're positioned nearly even, so it's less clear which one is top and which one is bottom. Lastly, because the characters always speak in the same order, the entire problem could have been prevented if the characters had simply been repositioned so that the first speaker was on the left.

It only irritates me when I think about it. Most of the time, I just let it go and read the comic. But Greg Dean isn't the only one who consistantly does this wrong- a lot of newcomers are learning from him and are repeating the same mistakes. Top to Bottom balloon order makes sense when it's clear, but sometimes it's not clear.

Jack Masters · Post by **Jack Masters** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 2:51 pm

By my judgement, the slope between the word balloons in the top panels is steeper then the bottom ones, enough to shift the general order of reading. It's a subjective thing though.

losttoy · Post by **losttoy** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:52 pm

I totaly agree with Yingo. I too havee noticed the manga and hero cliches. I guess that is why I read alternative comics. My wife is also one of those people who have trouble reading pictures and words together. I totaly bogs my mind when she or anybody else says this. However, with the baby on our way, we have lots of childrens books that will perhaps re-educate her to read comics better.

InkAddict · Post by **InkAddict** » Sat Apr 12, 2003 9:26 am

losttoy wrote:However, with the baby on our way, we have lots of childrens books that will perhaps re-educate her to read comics better.

At least I'm glad "pictures" are no longer seen as a "shortcut" to "actual reading"...

I used to hear quite a few people say that "comics" tend to turn people (at least slightly) illiterate, and were "easy" reading, while "comic illiteratism" (--er, is this a word?) is now quite "recognised"...

Makes me wonder about something an alternative animated movie director once defended his movies, that were "too superficially jumpy", and offering "too much info" at the same time... (they were sort of Dave McKean-like quirky with voices telling stories all at once and short bits of images flashing for only moments), and he kept referring to his critics as the "uneducated"...

Meanwhile there's the anecdote about the Kaiser telling W.A. Mozart he didn't like his music because there were "too many notes"...

Comics seem to be a much more "complex" and "cultural" form of expression than books or still images ever were...

Wikkit · Post by **Wikkit** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 11:22 am

Greg Stephens wrote:
Yingo wrote:BTW, the trick with "REAL LIFE" seems to read them "top-to-bottom", and ignore "left-to-right" or "right-to-left" completely... Then it seems rather consistant
Often, yes, but in the example Wikkit gave, the first two panels are clearly intended to be read top to bottom while in the last two panels it doesn't seem to really make any difference.

In the third panel, it's Greg who has to be talking first, which isn't top to bottom by the tops, bottoms, or centers of the bubbles. I've been reading Real Life for a while, so I know that's it's usually top to bottom.

Thanks for replying, Greg, Yingo, Jack.

Ben

losttoy · Post by **losttoy** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:57 pm

Meanwhile there's the anecdote about the Kaiser telling W.A. Mozart he didn't like his music because there were "too many notes"...

I had a friend at work who asked how I could stand listening to techno music because it was too fast and had too many notes. I almost strangled him. Some people, eh?

Post by **Greg Stephens** » Mon May 12, 2003 3:44 pm

OK, now here's an example where you have to read from bottom to top, completely violating the top to bottom rule that Real Life generally follows.

Post by **Greg Stephens** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 11:54 am

Bubble order, screwed up again: Guest comic at PvP by Maritza Campos.

This takes so little effort and just a little bit of thought to get right, why do people screw it up so often?

I'm just going to keep adding to this thread every time I see it wrong. It'll be a long thread.

Edit: I'm talking specifically about panel 4. Panel 4 clearly uses correct bubble order, but the character placement and bubble order disagree. There are better ways to compose the panel so that you don't have to cross the tails ("I thought you said crossing the streams was bad, Egon."). Even though panels 2 and 3 can be improved by flipping them horizontally, they're not wrong because the eye can clearly follow the conversation and bubble placement is perfectly fine. However if you flipped every panel, then you'd have both correct bubble placement and bubble order which agrees with character placement (where the first character to speak is on the left) and you wouldn't have to cross the tails for the final exchange. If you wanted to correct only panel 4, then you change the composition so that the characters are lower down, leaving room for Jade's dialogue above her head and Brent's final observation can be placed in the lower left or remain in the lower right. I've half a mind (is that all?) to edit this comic for both cases to illustrate how easy it is to do something right. Other than this, the comic is wonderful- nice lines, nice color, nice dialogue, decent humor. Get the balloon placement right and it's everything a comic should be.

losttoy · Post by **losttoy** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 1:37 pm

Okay ... if you are talking about the comic that has a boy in a Darth Vader helmet on (since you have it linked to an index, not an archived page, it could have changed since you posted), I do not see any bubble order problems. What is wrong with it?

Regardless, I will ask this again ... Why are you bothering going online finding mistakes in webcomics and coming here to critiquize it? What is the point? I understand when we were talking about the pregnant pause in another string, you had to use a example to talk about the broad range of use that is the tendancy of several web comics today. It is very common crutch for amature artists and brings a interesting topic to this forum. Yes, bubble order is a problem with young artists, although I think we have ran this point into the ground. However this problem would be better solved by providing the artist with a professional critique through e-mail or their forum provided on their site. It is my belief that by writting insults of "this guy sucks with bubble order," on a forum where the artist probably does not even read, will not solve the problem and promoutes a negative attitude in this forum. I could spend ages looking online finding faults and crappy comics. I could bitch endlessly about how people can not draw hands right and they are too big for the rest of the body, but bring it up here repeatively will not help solve the problem and I am sure people will get tired of it fast.

We already have a hype section where we can write what we feel about comics that people are hyping. Prehaps a critique section is in order, but I still think that the artist needs to be involved ... maybe invite the artist here first, to make it a two-sided confersation. Who knows, they may be doing the "mistake" on purpose for a reason or to break the "rules" ... somebody has to explore new ground. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not. Although this current string has, in my opinion, been said and done and is just being negative.

Post by **Greg Stephens** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:10 pm

losttoy wrote:Okay ... if you are talking about the comic that has a boy in a Darth Vader helmet on (since you have it linked to an index, not an archived page, it could have changed since you posted),

You're looking at the right comic. The link is to the archive page for today's comic (7/29/2003), but PvP's script is intelligent enough that if you link to a date that is equal to or greater than the most recent comic, it sends you to the index page automatically. I linked this way so that no matter if you hit the link today, tomorrow or next year, so long as the archive script doesn't change function, you'll see the comic I'm talking about.

losttoy wrote:I do not see any bubble order problems. What is wrong with it?

I made a lengthy edit to my previous post, but we cross-posted, so I didn't see your reply and you didn't see my amendation. If you scroll up, you'll see where I explain what's wrong with the comic's bubble order. I made this change because I realized that my post could use some elaboration.

losttoy wrote: Regardless, I will ask this again ... Why are you bothering going online finding mistakes in webcomics and coming here to critiquize it? What is the point?

It's not as if I'm looking for these example specifically to criticise them. I read PvP daily and I happened to notice today that the bubble order in the last panel was wrong.

As for the why of it, it's worth mentioning that even people who've been doing this for a long time can get it wrong. I think people can learn as much from mistakes as they can from seeing the correct way to do things. If you don't see the mistakes, then you don't know why the correct way is better.

losttoy wrote: It is my belief that by writting insults ... will not solve the problem and promoutes a negative attitude in this forum.

You may be right. I try to keep things of a constructive nature here and the only thing I can say is that if you read the thread, we aren't insulting anybody. Pointing out a mistake isn't insulting unless there's an insult along with it.

losttoy wrote:I could bitch endlessly about how people can not draw hands right and they are too big for the rest of the body, but bring it up here repeatively will not help solve the problem and I am sure people will get tired of it fast.

Yeah, again, you have a point, but that's why I went back and edited my post- to make it less of a complaint and more informative. Even so, the specific comparison you cite is more of style and preference (oversize hands) while bubble order can be held to much more objective standards.

losttoy wrote: We already have a hype section where we can write what we feel about comics that people are hyping. Prehaps a critique section is in order, but I still think that the artist needs to be involved ... maybe invite the artist here first, to make it a two-sided confersation.

I think the Reinventing Comics: Art section is sufficient for critique of such things. The nature of hype is such that it demands to be separated from discussion. If any artist wants to participate, they are free to do so, but I don't see that it's essential that the artist in question has any input at all into what we say here. At any rate, web-based message boards are already multi-sided conversations.

losttoy wrote: Who knows, they may be doing the "mistake" on purpose for a reason or to break the "rules" ... somebody has to explore new ground. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not.

True. Rule-breakers can often become truly great artists and pioneers of new styles. But sometimes a mistake is just a mistake.

Bruno, for example, is a comic that struggles with bubble order and breaks rules right and left, but you can see that there's a lot of thought put into it and that it's done on purpose. That's an example of somebody who knows the rules and breaks them anyway because he's learned how to make his own rules. When he does it poorly, you know its because he's struggled with it and not due to not having considering his options. The PvP strip- perfectly fine other than panel 4- is an example of a simple mistake. Probably a compromise that was reached when it was discovered too late that the balloon tails would have to be crossed.

losttoy · Post by **losttoy** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:08 pm

(Looks back) Oh, I see. Fair enough. I still stand by most of my statements though.

Post by **Greg Stephens** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 5:22 pm

Well I agree that you make some fair points. I do try to keep the level of discussion here to a certain standard, but sometimes I just can't take it and post random ravings.

losttoy · Post by **losttoy** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:08 pm

I do not get to read "real" paper comics too much anymore. There is a trip here or there to the comic store to buy graphic novels (I can not keep up with series comics) whenever cash comes my way (which is never). So this week I went to the library where they have your standard McCloud, Eisner, Gaiman, and a few other misc graphic novels. This time around I took out a copy of Tempus Fugitive by Ken Steacy. There was page that made me think of this confersation.

There were eight equal sized panels on this page. Other than a close-up on panel seven, all the panels were at a fixed camera shot. Ray is on the left and Alice is on the right. Whoever talked first had their bubble on the top left corner and the reply to the right. Even though the trails crossed twice on this page, it felt right. Frankly I think it is more important to have the bubbles read left to right. Whether the first speaker is on the left is irrelavant. The important part of the art is the angle and the impression the artist chooses for his/her vision.

The "speach" of bubbles in comics are only one part of the full product. Plot, dialog, form, color, depth and feel are things I look for in all comics. In poetry, I do not for proper grammer. The point of never crossing trails is a bit of spitting hairs for me. Just my opinion.

Post by **Greg Stephens** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:38 pm

losttoy wrote:The point of never crossing trails is a bit of spitting hairs for me. Just my opinion.

Well, it's not always a mistake. The example I cited above just looks like carelessness because it could have been avoided so easily.

I have done weird things with word balloons (and not entirely successfully, either- Here's one so bad that I had to resort to arrows!), so I realize that there are different ways to do things, but it's the little things that get me most. I also get bent out of shape when I see people use "it's" when they mean "its" or can't figure out which "their" they're supposed to put there.

(Man- looking through my old comics makes me realize how much I miss it. I actually really like a lot of that stuff.)

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 9:30 pm

I ran into a word balloon tail problem just recently, and I ended up removing the characters from the panel entirely and having no tails on the text, just different fonts.

http://castlezzt.net/tr0002.gif

Does this work?

losttoy · Post by **losttoy** » Sun Aug 03, 2003 2:46 pm

Nice comic, Andrew. I think it works.