To hell with print!

[William G]

I don't know if I'm the only one who feels this way, but I feel no desire to try and get my comics printed.

Am I alone in this?

[ragtag]

So far, from the votes, it seems so. Though, seriously. I don't think you are. There are lots of people who are interested in doing comics for the web, and doing stuff you can't do in print. And there would probably be even more if it was easier to earn a living from web comics.

I for one like both formats, but lean a little more in favor of print. I think it has something to do with that I work at a computer all day, so it's good to get away from it in my free time, and that books are just plain nice. I like reading in bed, an me and my 19" monitor aren't good bed partners. Also, when I have a book in hand, I'll be more focused. I'm there to read it, not to check my mail, surf forums, etc.etc.

As for my own work. I'm currently in the early stages of a comic I hope to print. What I've done previously has mostly been on the web, and part of that intentionally so, because I knew that was the best way to reach my audience.

Ragnar

[William G]

Well, I suppose the real question is: Why would you want to go through the effort and cost of creating something that, because you don't draw big spandex covered boobs, will be pretty much ignored and unappreciated by the small, small, small, small, small, smallsmallsmallsmall.... group of people who frequent the vanishing shops where your book will only be found?

I mean, I don't dislike print, but I can't see it being a reasonable objective as long as the huge twitching corpses of the superhero companies still block the path to success. If you get what I'm sayin'.

[ragtag]

You've got a point there. I guess I'm hoping, maybe naively, to reach the people that don't frequent comic book shops. I plan on book format (not 24 page issues), and to market to bookstores. I also live in Europe, where there are fewer spandex covered boobs around and probably a more open market for other genres. It might fail, but at least I want to try.

Ragnar

[losttoy]

There is a market for both. I like doing my comics on the computer where I can decide if either print or web on whatever project it is.

I understand the work that goes into self publishing. It will make or break you. However, if people like Dave Sims, Jeff Smith or Terry Moore can print comics without spandex, then there is always the possiblity being the next best non-superhero comic.

The web does give you more flexiblity "infinate canvas" and all. But this too can be hit or miss. The start-up cost for self publishing web comics are cheaper, but the return is cheaper too. We all can't be James Kochalka or what have you.

I guess my point is that it does not have to be about money and how many readers you have. There is also the fun, showing off your art, and getting experience. Yeah ... and after drawing web comics, maybe I will get picked up by Oni Press to draw and new series and win an Eisner Award just like Steve Rolston did. Then I won't return your e-mails neither.

[Guest]

I like how the majority have said "Anything for $$" in the poll

[gazorenzoku]

To me the computer still just doesn't outdo the book / magazine as a reading tool. I still love print more than pixels... not that I don't like pixels. They can be a lot of fun. But if I had to give up one of the two, it would definitely be pixels.

But that's how I feel as a reader.

As far as creating comics, yeah, whatever would draw in the most readers would be fine with me. And also pay enough money so I could support myself and a family without having to whore myself out on the side. I'm pretty indifferent when it comes to creating. Both formats offer some great things.

[Tim Mallos]

Hmmm.

I whore myself full time and try to do some comics on the side.

The whole art irony thing is infuriating: You have a good job you can buy reference tools, materials, web space etc, but you have no time.

You serve the fickle mistress of art and you have lots of time, but spend a lot of it worrying about food, rent, reference tools, materials, web space etc.

I think we need to revive the idea of patronages. Some untalented wealthy person takes care of you financially to feel connected to the creative process. I patronize people every day, but when I make my millions I pledge to sponsor some struggling comics newbie too.


(even if it's just me)
Tim

[gazorenzoku]

The last time someone patronized me, I punched him in the face. We are talking about the same thing, aren't we?

Ok, well, the truth is I didn't punch him, I just went home and cried. Is it bad to admit that?

I'm giving myself up until March of this year to see if I have what it takes to survive in the print comics industry. If by the middle or so of March, it doesn't look like I will score any kind of work, I am going to make a portfolio and try for web / print design jobs here in Japan. Then at least I'll finally have enough money to buy graphic novels again!!

I think the key is to just keep trying to get into print. If you want to make a career out of it, that is. I may be way off here, and I'll find out soon, but I think that maybe if you try hard enough, you can eventually get to a point where some small press company pays you a fair salary. It might not be as good as the job you have now, but given the choice, which one would you choose?

Anyhow, you can always do a few web comic things on the side after becoming a paid print artist...

Or is that all just a bunch of hooey?

[William G]

Well, I was working a long, tiring job in Korea, and I was only able to get a new comic out once every few months...

[gazorenzoku]

Well, I suppose the real question is: Why would you want to go through the effort and cost of creating something that, because you don't draw big spandex covered boobs, will be pretty much ignored and unappreciated by the small, small, small, small, small, smallsmallsmallsmall.... group of people who frequent the vanishing shops where your book will only be found?

I mean, I don't dislike print, but I can't see it being a reasonable objective as long as the huge twitching corpses of the superhero companies still block the path to success. If you get what I'm sayin'.

Blankets. Courtney Crumrin. Ghost World. Anything by Alan Moore.

We finally have stuff we can hand to non-comic fans and get them excited about reading comics. Finally.

The process might be pretty slow, but American comics are finally starting to creep into the public eye. And I don't mean the occasional newspaper article about Dark Knight with the bright lights and promise of "comics aren't just for kids anymore!" Remember the time when all you could boast about was Watchmen and Maus? I mean, not that those works aren't kick ass, but still, pretty limited market.

I'm talking about good quality, bookstore material, stuff for your father who only likes novels kind of work. Why not make more of the same? And of course, people should be doing it in print AND online. But why not have some more people do some great stuff in print? Why not make things better?

[William G]

Blankets. Courtney Crumrin. Ghost World. Anything by Alan Moore.

We finally have stuff we can hand to non-comic fans and get them excited about reading comics. Finally.

Dude, I consider myself into comics and I have only heard of three of those. And two of them, Moore and Ghost World, have movies attached to their names.

The process might be pretty slow, but American comics are finally starting to creep into the public eye.

But these are exceptions rather than the rule. When it gets to the point it is in Japan, where comics are these massivly selling pieces of disposable entertainment, then I can see it being accepted by the public.

I'm talking about good quality, bookstore material, stuff for your father who only likes novels kind of work. Why not make more of the same?

That's assuming there are enough talented writers and artists out there to create that. I don't doubt there are, but so many of us are living in our own private Idaho when it comes to what we make, that I don't think we'll see it happen soon.

And of course, people should be doing it in print AND online. But why not have some more people do some great stuff in print? Why not make things better?

Well, this brings in the problem of someone going "Well, I can pay $30 for this... or I can view it for free online...hmmmmm". I know you can point to DKK's success with Same Difference, but not everyone has the same skill level as he does.

But even then, he still didnt sell nearly as many comics as he should have. Why? Because the plebs still associate comics with superheroes. And they will continue to do so as long as the big companies are still there.

Put a steak through the superhero's undead heart first, (or shoot them in the head like a zombie... Cant wait to see that movie)then we may be able to make some headway into print,

[CleverUserName01]

And of course, people should be doing it in print AND online. But why not have some more people do some great stuff in print? Why not make things better?

Well, this brings in the problem of someone going "Well, I can pay $30 for this... or I can view it for free online...hmmmmm".

1. How much longer is free on-line content (of any sort, let alone comics) going to be a reality? I'm not sure that I'm quite the believer in micropayments and such that Scott McCloud is, but something is coming down the pipe in this regard. As webcomics grow in popularity, those who create them are more and more going to want to make money by doing so - pure art is a wonderful thing ("maybe the best of things," to paraphrase The Shawshank Redemption), but it puts neither roof over head nor bread on table.

2. A currently pertinent issue, and one that will only become moreso as free on-line content goes the way of the dodo, is value. Bang for the buck. I really dig McCloud's web stuff, but I can't pull it out at my leisure to study, to leaf thru, to enjoy, the way I can with a "Zot!" collection. Print, I can read in my big squashy armchair, in bed, on an airplane, in the can...anyplace I want, really. Not so with webcomics. If I'm drawing a page with a sequence that I can't get right, and I want to see how Eisner handled something similar in "Dropsie Avenue," well, it's right there on my bookshelf on the other side of the room, awaiting my perusal.

Yeah, printed and bound comics are more expensive than webcomics, but there are those who say you get what you pay for. I like the web stuff for its possibilities (I was completely blown away the first time I saw McCloud's gigantic vertical "Zot and Jenny falling" panel), but I also like print for its solidity and portability. Each format does things the other can't.

Put a steak through the superhero's undead heart first, (or shoot them in the head like a zombie... Cant wait to see that movie)then we may be able to make some headway into print,

Meh. I'm as interested in diversity of genre as anyone, but diversity doesn't mean no superheroes, it means more than superheroes. There's some really swell superhero stories out there.

There's nothing inherently wrong with superheroes - they're popular and crowd-pleasing. You see it in every popular art form; the crowd-pleasing crap outdraws the stuff that at least attempts to be thoughtful or literate. "Bad Boys II" sells more tickets than "Lost in Translation," John Grisham sells more copies than Michael Chabon, "Friends" draws more viewers in a run-of-the-mill week than the combined viewership of every single episode of the late, lamented "SportsNight." I don't think the goal of diversity of genre means "eliminating in favor of...", I think it means "expanding to allow for..."

[Greg Stephens]

I think superheroes will we around in comics for as long as we have comics, even if the big publishers collapse. So many creators are interested in making comics about superheroes- due to the fact that this is what they've been fans of- that there'll always be more than enough superhero comics. ("Always" being a relative term, of course.)

I've recently started thinking that many of the people who say it would be a good thing for Marvel and DC to go out of business have a very good point. If it were to happen, there will surely be a period of time when 95% of the current comic shops close up and comics in general become much harder to find, but this would pave the way for something different and perhaps better. I find the analogy of the dinosaurs dying off and small furry mammals surviving then rising to dominance to be representative of this concept (of course, it could also easily be that comics wind up as the endangered Komodo Dragon while something else- say, video games?- becomes the true mammal in this scenario). I'm still not saying that I think comics in print will die off, since I think what could replace Marvel/DC-style superheroes would be comics that cover more genres, are better written and drawn, comics that reside in regular bookstores as something other than a single shelf by the SF/Fantasy books.

And in that gap, perhaps, digital comics will gain a much better foothold.

Speaking of portable webcomics, with all the wireless internet devices these days, and such things as tablet PCs and better laptop PCs, it's becoming a much poorer argument that the portability of print is such a major advantage over the web. Print will still have advantges, as digital will have its own advantages, but portability-parity is very close to being here.

[gazorenzoku]

ok, I agree with pretty much everything Greg said, except the thing about Marvel & DC going out of business. I think they should both branch out into new areas while still keeping the comic stores alive with their superhero fare. Yeah, they come up with stuff like Vertigo, Max, etc... but they never come up with stuff of the same quality of the stuff Fantagraphics (Frank, Eightball, etc.) and Top Shelf (Blankets, etc.) are putting out. What would be awesome would be if they both created indie branches, and stuck with them. Not let them die out. Not use them as new ways to tell superhero based stories. Just attract indie talent, keep them in the same way Fantagraphics and Top Shelf do (by giving them fair money and creative freedom and their own copyrights), and refuse to close shop on the whole affair. Hire indie editors, the whole works. Invade the bookstores with quality stuff. Pour money into it. Really put their money where their mouth is when they say that they care about the industry.

And then just keep running the superhero side of things as well.

Why don't they do this? Why don't we ALL, including Marvel & DC, just gang up on the bookstores and beat them senseless with QUALITY?

In Japan, I can get a 300 page graphic novel for 350 yen, the equivilant of about $3.75 or $4.00. That's about as much as some small press 24 page comics!!!

Why so cheap? Because so many people buy them that they can afford to price it so low (also, I don't know, but I think maybe the artists here in general draw faster and less detailed, getting a higher page count per day done, which might also lower the price). Why can't we just all get together and put out enough quality stuff into the bookstores that the readership grows and price drops (or, at the very least, doesn't continue its upward spiral).

Comics are in the state they are in now (low recognition, high amount of low quality work, etc.) because WE MADE THEM THAT WAY. I think we can make the whole thing better. It will take a lot of work. It will take, maybe 100 "Blankets". Which doesn't mean 100 autobiographical stories. It means 100 stories with as much weight, pleasure, coolness, and ORIGINALITY as "Blankets". It also means there has to be publishing companies willing to push them violently into people's hands.

Now, I don't want to say I am a genius or even a "good storyteller", but I am working on my "good story" right now. For print. What if we all did something incredible TODAY? We could shape TOMORROW!!

(ok, I know that sounds totally cheezy... but hey.... it is true)

(p.s. I still love superheroes too!)

[gazorenzoku]

When it gets to the point it is in Japan, where comics are these massivly selling pieces of disposable entertainment, then I can see it being accepted by the public.

As much as I love comics here in Japan, and the comic system in general, we in America have something they don't have here (I say "here" because I live in Japan). We have the small press movement.

Comics are such a part of public entertainment here that they are really mainstream. Which means, no real small press movement to speak of. Most small press comics are just drawings of naked women drawn from porno mags. Yeah. Here, we have no outlet for the next indie genius. There are some crazy people doing crazy things here, just not the same number or even the same percent as what we have in America right now.

So. This means that right now, because making non-superhero stuff is still considered fringe, we have a lot of crazy genius stuff blowing up and totally energizing the scene in America. This stuff eventually needs to grow in number and find its way into people's hands.

I think if we could produce art comics at the same rate that Japan produces mass entertainment comics, we would be the genius child of the world comics industry.

Yeah, of course, at the same time we would need tons of mainstream centered entertainment too, otherwise we wouldn't be that much bigger than we are with the superhero rulled market.

But, on the other hand, think of how many art freaks would read art comics if they could be convinced that they were actually pieces of art. I wonder how many readers we would have if we added all the art freaks to all the superhero geeks? And by art freaks I mean everyone from guys with metal spikes coming out of their heads to art teachers at univesities.

[William G]

1. How much longer is free on-line content (of any sort, let alone comics) going to be a reality?

For as long as webcomics remain a minor presence on the internet.

There's nothing inherently wrong with superheroes - they're popular and crowd-pleasing.

Don't let this summer's movies fool you, superheros are not crowd pleasing. Superhero movies are. That's why you have to crawl to the Androids Dungeon to by Spiderman.

I'm still not saying that I think comics in print will die off, since I think what could replace Marvel/DC-style superheroes would be comics that cover more genres, are better written and drawn, comics that reside in regular bookstores as something other than a single shelf by the SF/Fantasy books.

Totally agree. But I don't think it'll happen until they get out of the way first.

it's becoming a much poorer argument that the portability of print is such a major advantage over the web.

When the much heralded "E-Paper" becomes widespread, I can see this happening, but I really dont want to try to take a crap and hold my laptop steady at the same time at this point in time.

Why don't they do this? Why don't we ALL, including Marvel & DC, just gang up on the bookstores and beat them senseless with QUALITY?

In Japan, I can get a 300 page graphic novel for 350 yen, the equivilant of about $3.75 or $4.00. That's about as much as some small press 24 page comics!!!

Why so cheap? Because so many people buy them that they can afford to price it so low (also, I don't know, but I think maybe the artists here in general draw faster and less detailed, getting a higher page count per day done, which might also lower the price). Why can't we just all get together and put out enough quality stuff into the bookstores that the readership grows and price drops (or, at the very least, doesn't continue its upward spiral).

Actually, it's the lack of quality that makes Japanese manga so cheap. Instead of glossy high grade paper, North Americam print comics should opt for cheap, recycled newsprint that could be recycled again. Of course, we'd have to kill the collectors, who are every bit as guilty for the sad state of comics today as greedy old Marvel, DC, and the others...

Comics are such a part of public entertainment here that they are really mainstream. Which means, no real small press movement to speak of. Most small press comics are just drawings of naked women drawn from porno mags. Yeah. Here, we have no outlet for the next indie genius.

Good ol' dojinshis.

But quite honestly, when sales drop in Japan, they do start tossing new ideas against the wall and hoping that one of the new guys they hired is that indie genius.

Look at One Piece. Atypical comic that came in at a time when they needed find the next big thing.

[CleverUserName01]

Don't let this summer's movies fool you, superheros are not crowd pleasing. Superhero movies are. That's why you have to crawl to the Androids Dungeon to by Spiderman.

You are, deliberately or otherwise, misinterpreting me. What one calls a crowd is a matter of context and scale, and as the comics-buying "crowd" goes, I stand by my statement. Super-heroes remain the top sellers, in spite of the increasing availability of alternatives.

[William G]

Don't let this summer's movies fool you, superheros are not crowd pleasing. Superhero movies are. That's why you have to crawl to the Androids Dungeon to by Spiderman.

You are, deliberately or otherwise, misinterpreting me. What one calls a crowd is a matter of context and scale, and as the comics-buying "crowd" goes, I stand by my statement. Super-heroes remain the top sellers, in spite of the increasing availability of alternatives.

Get real, the comics buying crowd is more like the comics buying handfull because the MUCH MUCH WIDER buying public do not like superhero comics and because of the dominance of the genre, do NOT venture into the comics shop.

You know... the people with the money and ability to put our chosen art field over and allow us all the chance to make a living from our work.

I've been trying to find actual sales numbers for super hero comics by doing a quick Google search, but it seems a bit hard to find. Why is that? Could it be because the numbers are abysimal?

Why yes they are!

1. ... JLA/AVENGERS #3 (OF 4) ... 148,196

By my last estimate, there are over 300 million people in North America, each of whom have the ability to buy that comic... and yet only 148 thousand of them did so? Why do you think that is? Because, rightly or wrongly, they only see superheroes when they see comics, and it's painfully obvious they dont like them.

That's why superheroes MUST GO and be forgotten. They are an albatross around the neck of the medium.