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Kris Lachowski
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

efm wrote:

Kris, I drew this I swear. I went through the last few pages and realized that I never uploaded it. I must of forgot and now I can't find the file. Oh well, I'll guess I just have to redo it. Or maybe the joke is over now.


nope, the jokes not over redraw it! : P
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Michael_Harker
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

efm wrote:
Going through these pages I had this thought: Someone should take all of our panels and print up a benefit book for the CBLDF. I mean Neil Gaiman just received his own convention. Where's Scott's convention? Where's Understanding Scott McCloud 2004? At the very least, where is the benefit book?


Heh, I'd go to a Scott McCloud convention. I'd even dress up as a micropayment!
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Eric F Myers
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael_Harker wrote:
Heh, I'd go to a Scott McCloud convention. I'd even dress up as a micropayment!


I would go as Resurrected Lincoln

Kris Lachowski wrote:

nope, the jokes not over redraw it! : P


All right, punk... happy now? Are you? Huh?



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Neil Cohn
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, this one is ripe for all sorts of gags...

Scott Understands Conventions


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Neil Cohn
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

efm wrote:
Someone should take all of our panels and print up a benefit book for the CBLDF.


I'll second that motion! Anything that could make them some more bucks is a good idea in my book. Any thoughts on how this could actually get done?
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Greg Stephens
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

efm wrote:
Greg, are you still grabbing them?

Yup. I've even uploaded most of them, but just haven't done the laborious process of entering them into the database, yet. I must do so, soon.
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Eric F Myers
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neil Cohn wrote:
I'll second that motion! Anything that could make them some more bucks is a good idea in my book. Any thoughts on how this could actually get done?
First, the owners of the art would have to give their permission to be included. You would need high resolution files of all of the images. We would need a volunteer, or volunteers, to compile the images into a book format (this could also be done by committee). Then funds would have to be raised for printing cost. It's not to complicated but it seem like we would need a lot more pictures, I think we only have 58 so far.

Oh? and I guess we should ask Scott for his permission too. After all:

Tweep wrote:
Understanding Trademark Violation


Any volunteers?
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William G
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering that I only used altered copyrighted images, my contributions should be left out.

I dont even know if greg grabbed them anyway, so maybe it doesnt matter.
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russ
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

efm wrote:
You would need high resolution files of all of the images.


That seems unlikely to exist for at least several of the images, which were probably created in the resolution that they appeared here (I'm guessing). But that is certainly not an insurmountable obstacle!

I'm not sure I believe this is a book anyone would actually want to buy, since it's all art from a single thread at this forum. (I assume and hope that the art would not be removed from zwol.org in an effort to sell the hypothetical book!) The art would lose a lot being printed in b&w, and the book would cost more to print in color. But I don't know. Maybe the "it's for a good cause" factor would kick in.
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Eric F Myers
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

russ wrote:
I'm not sure I believe this is a book anyone would actually want to buy, since it's all art from a single thread at this forum. (I assume and hope that the art would not be removed from zwol.org in an effort to sell the hypothetical book!)
That's why we would need more art. And maybe some stuff from the more famous in the comic world.

William G wrote:
Considering that I only used altered copyrighted images, my contributions should be left out.
Since they are a parady of the original I believe copyright laws would protect your art. It would be ironic if the CBLF was called upon to defend a book that was meant to raise funds for them.

William G wrote:
I dont even know if greg grabbed them anyway, so maybe it doesnt matter.
If he didn't, I did.
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Greg Stephens
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

William G wrote:
I dont even know if greg grabbed them anyway, so maybe it doesnt matter.


I've got them all.
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Haze
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scott Understands Walruses

but he never noticed them either.
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buzzard
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Materials that incorporated other people's copyrighted permission, such as William G's and mine, probably do not qualify as fair use via parody. Read up on the Penny Arcade Strawberry Shortcake incident, where they thought the same thing as you, and found that they were wrong: adapting material A (e.g. Strawberry Shortcake, or, in my case, Xaio Xaio 3) in combination with B (American McGee, or, in my case, Scott McCloud) for purpose of poking fun at B (American McGee/Scott McCloud) does not constitute parody of A (Strawberry Shortcake/Xaio Xaio) and hence does not qualify as fair use.
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russ
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had the impression that the law was quite murky on that question of fair use and parody and so forth, and that in the real world it boils down to who has the most money and lawyers. Penny Arcade decided they could not afford to fight a multimillion dollar greeting card company, even though it was not clear they were in the wrong (as I recall). Similar examples abound. In some sense this is an academic distinction since the practical effect works out the same, though. :/ Of course many times such small-time parodies go under the radar and never cause a stink.
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buzzard
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2004 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like I said, go read up on the Penny Arcade case.

Alright, sheesh, here I'll do the research for you.

It is murky, but it of course does not boil down to whoever has the most money. At a certain point the money ties, and the law wins out. And the point in the PA case (and I think it applies to this case) is that there are precedents against it. It's not open and shut; who can say how things would turn out. But in particular it's not trivially obviously going to be a winnable fair use case, money aside.

From http://www.tklaw.com/website.nsf/WEBnewx/E9C2CAE7D8D7B97786256CC40060291E (which PA themselves linked to, calling attention to the below, as one of the things that made them doubt the case was winnable):

Quote:
In 1997, the U.S. Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals held that the work at issue in this case was a satire, not a parody, and thus not entitled to fair use protection. The controversy in this case centered on The Cat NOT in the Hat! A Parody by Dr. Juice, a book that reproduced the verbal and graphic style of the Dr. Seuss The Cat in the Hat children?s books to re-tell the tale of the O.J. Simpson murder trial.

Concerning the purpose and character of the defendant?s use, the court concluded that The Cat NOT in the Hat did not constitute a legitimate parody. It dissected the definition of parody and determined that in order to be a parody in the legal sense, a work must at least in part target the plaintiff?s copyrighted work. The Ninth Circuit held that the critical difference is that in a parody, the original work is the object of the defendant?s commentary, and in a satire, the copyrighted work is merely ?a vehicle to poke fun at a different target.?

The Court held that the self-titled ?parody? was in fact something less than transformative, because the original was not the focus of the work?s criticism.
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William G @ PC room
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2004 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This judgement makes sense to me. Creatively limiting, but sensible.

Anyway, I tossed those off in about five minutes each. I can contribute something original if this project goes ahead.

-Bill
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Eric F Myers
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That doesn't make sense at all. If that was the case, MAD magazine would be in litigation's for the next 100 years. One court ruling doesn't make a law, it just interprets it. Some other judge down the road could interpret the law it differently and overturn it down the road.

But to be on the safe side we should try not to use any copyrighted material.
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BuckBeaver
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2004 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those interested copyright and copyright myths, Jim Zubkavich (of Makeshift Miracle fame) has a short but very good list of sites at http://makeshiftmiracle.com/Links.html (scroll down to the "Web Comic Marketing" section).

Oh, and I'd be willing to volunteer to do the layout for the book since I do that all day at work anyway. Are we really going to do this? I think it's a great idea if Scott gives his OK.
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Last edited by BuckBeaver on Sun Nov 28, 2004 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Scott McCloud
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I think it would be cool to just maintain a permanent online gallery -- just a slightly more elaborate version of Greg's archive maybe. Maybe something with a big thumbnail front page, and a little submission page with a space for comments.

If you start to go toward print, you'd have to think about selling it, and then all those rights issues would come up, not to mention the hassle of printing generally and the inability to continually update.
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Tim Mallos
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps a bitpass tip jar for CBLDF at the end of the gallery?

Tim
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Scott McCloud
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah! That'd be cool.
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Greg Stephens
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thus Scott proves that he understands silly web-tributes.

I can't put off updating the existing archive any longer, then, so that you have the complete set so far. I'll get to it in the next couple days, then.
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BuckBeaver
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greg, what is the URL for existing achive? Is there one?
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Greg Stephens
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It be here: http://www.zwol.org/archive.php3?type=understands

Only the first 15 are there right now. I need to add the rest, but I've saved them all and already uploaded most of them.
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