FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   Log inLog in   RegisterRegister
MOTO: New Terms for Comics
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Zwol.org Forum Index -> (Web)Comics Theory: ART
Previous: PostLink - nDroid Next: PostWebcomics and Hypercomics, Oh my!  
Author Message
Greg Stephens
Forum Founder


Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 3861
Location: Los Angeles, California, USA

PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2001 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steven Grant's Master of the Obvious this week discusses the possible need for an alternative to the term "comic book".

_________________
Good morning! That's a nice tnetennba.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
lylebclarke
Frequent Poster


Joined: 15 Apr 2001
Posts: 59
Location: New Zealand and Denmark

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2001 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Making up new names for things is a good idea.

Ann and I know a young guy that writes books on 'branding' and marketing on the Internet. He is still young, and has carved himself a decent career in a very short period of time.

Making up new names for things is something I've learnt from him. Going with a new name helps drops old stigmas and lets you start totally afresh with your brand.

His latest efforts are here:
http://www.dualbook.com
He has invented the term 'dualbook' to mean a book with URL's instead of page numbers, that is duplicated and updated via the Internet. By defining what he is doing just right, he is able to proudly say that he is 'first in the world'. Being 'first in the world' is an easy hook to catch old media attention. He knows that. He's done it before with previous books. He also knows that by making the hyperlinking, in the definition, an integral part of the book, he is distancing himself from all the many books that have been written, and have huge lists of dying, never updating hyperlinks.

Which is why a week or so ago, after the new Mooloo format started settling in, I renamed my "strips" to "human powered animations"(HPA's). In reality, this hasn't changed anything, but I'm hoping that over time, by pushing the new term instead of 'webcomics' and 'online comics' or 'webtooons', I won't get painted by even remotely the same brush as Thin H Line, LWIBH, and a huge number of other comics that are very very easy to find (when they're up) when surfing around the other terms.

So, to sum up. I think everyone should change the name of what they do, away from what it grew out of, and into something that better descibes what it grew into.

Cheers
Lyle
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
John2two
Consistant Poster


Joined: 15 Apr 2001
Posts: 100
Location: Monroe, Oregon, USA

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2001 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I, on the other hand, think of the bulk of the efforts of renamers (in the Internet world at large, not in the comix realm) as so much self-indulgent hoo-ha marketing wank.

But maybe my curmudgeonly outlook is only a reflection, in this limited arena, of the fact that in every concern, 90% of stuff is crap. I agree that in a small percentage of the cases, renaming works and opens up a world of fresh opportunities to a hide-bound subgenre. But most of the time, marketing hype is transparently so to everyone except the ones who stand to profit immediately by its success. In those cases, it eventually falls by the wayside to provide fodder for one of those "weren't our grandparents so cute in their naivité" books.

I hope the renamers succeed, but am not optimistic.

John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Max Leibman
Consistant Poster


Joined: 15 Apr 2001
Posts: 130
Location: Springfield, Nebraska (USA)

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2001 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to resurrect such a long-dead thread, but I was wondering what everybody thought of the names Steven Grant eventually decided on as best:

Zines

and

Paper Movies.

I'm wondering what everybody else thinks, but, as you may imagine, I have my own views, too.

First, on the subject of 'Zines, Steven Grant himself justifies the term with this:

"Zines" is also a good replacement, a word that vaguely suggests something to everyone who hears it and is steeped in comics history (for those who came in late, as the Phantom used to say, "zine" was once a popular slang for "fanzine," adopted by comics fandom from sf fandom), is generic enough to not burden the medium with unnecessary expectations, and is "comics-neutral," like manga. Everyone who has ever heard the term knows manga are Japanese comics. But they're not comics, they're manga...It's that vague perceptual shift I was talking about.


Still, am I the only one who finds zines, well, kind of lame? Maybe it's just me, but I don't think connecting comics with an artifact of sci-fi fandom is any better than connecting comics with the baggage of the term "comics"; whatever the relative quality of comics fanzines, or the talents that got their start therein, it still suggests to me a bunch of sweaty adolescent fanboys who were a little too self-important. I can view them as a labor of love that brought a serious critical eye to the medium, but at the same time, it wouldn't be right to hold that up, but ignore the uber-fan aspect, and the fact that there were plenty of zines that were the equivalent of today's, "Spawn fukkin' rulez!" website.

That's better than comics how, again?

As for "Paper Movies"...well, that's better. But it's off the mark, too. First of all, it ties the idea of comics to the idea of paper, when (quite plainly) what makes a comic a comic has nothing to do with paper. Moreover, it enforces the metaphor of comics as film, which is a fruitful one, but not the only one. An upcoming Sequential Art Jam addresses comics as music, for instance. And, as Warren Ellis points out on his eponymous forum, the upcoming U.S. War Machine comic from Marvel is analogous to a season of a television show (12 installments, published weekly).

So, my take? Zines isn't helping anything. Paper movies is too limited.

I made a couple of suggestions, too: Visual Narratives and Storyboards (the latter obviously swiped from film and animation, but oh well). I've spent a lot of words here, so I'll just link to my comments elsewhere justifying these two choices.

What does everybody else think?

Peace out,

Max Leibman

[ This Message was edited by: Max Leibman on 2001-06-19 10:04 ]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Greg Stephens
Forum Founder


Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 3861
Location: Los Angeles, California, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2001 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, since his first column on the subject, I've noticed that the term Steven Grant uses most often to refer to comics is... comics.

_________________
Good morning! That's a nice tnetennba.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
rcar
Consistant Poster


Joined: 31 May 2001
Posts: 103

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2001 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

New names just sort of happen. The examples I can think of off hand is: A critic writting of the new art style called it "impressionism". Sports reporters will make a comment on a player, the thing you know he has a new nick name. There are plenty more examples that I can't think of right now, but it seems that new names happen more than are made. It is not easy to come up with a new name and then get people to adopt it.

I have been struggling on what to call my comics. I keep saying "online comic books" or "interactive comic books" I wish there was a better term.

Randy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Max Leibman
Consistant Poster


Joined: 15 Apr 2001
Posts: 130
Location: Springfield, Nebraska (USA)

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2001 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greg wrote:

Well, since his first column on the subject, I've noticed that the term Steven Grant uses most often to refer to comics is... comics.


Ha! Very true. Still, he has done a little pushing of Zines, and I have caught him throwing it around a couple of times. He's not taking it too seriously, though, as this comment from a recent interview reveals:

Oh, I don't expect to be successful with it. But anything's worth a try; what do we have to lose?


Still, I admire his creativity. He's trying to re-format public opinion on comics via semantic control.

While I'm here, I'll try to ignite some more naming debate: am I the only one who finds comix to be completely repulsive when applied to the mass of comics at large? I have no idea where such a prejudice would come from -- but I've always hated the term, particularly when it comes from those few people who use it on everything from Cerebus to Batman.

Is that just me?

Later,

Max Leibman

[ This Message was edited by: Max Leibman on 2001-06-20 10:47 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Max Leibman on 2001-06-20 10:48 ]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
damonk13
Frequent Poster


Joined: 01 May 2001
Posts: 70
Location: l'acadie

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2001 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, i guess i can understand the initial feelings as to why some artists preferred the term comix -- they were trying to disassociate themselves with comics and the "zany fluff humour" stereotype that was stuck to it in the 70s and 80s...

but personally, i find that trying to rename yourself instead of trying to make yourself noted on your merits and not by your "label" is self-defeating.

Sure, comics/comix are still not taken as seriously by the general public as we all wish it would, but changing names has no real bearing on what your own final product is... I don't think that Art Speigelman's MAUS series is considered any less serious or incredible whether Art prefers to call it a COMIX, and most people still call it a COMIC. It's the meat that has taste, not the packaging.

I had never seen this thread, but when reading the first post, I was disappointed by the elitism being exhibited by the poster -- to want to change your name because you don't want to be identified with other works rendered in a similar medium just reeks of snobbery.

Moreover, it implies that readers can't decide which are the "good" or "bad" comics on their own... give them more credit than that!

I mean, seriously -- should we change names every time we find something to be substandard or subjectively unappealing in our eyes?

If I like one brand name of something over another, should i create a new name for it?

no, i don't think so.

cola is cola, and webcomics are webcomics.

the consumer can choose her/his preferences; they do not need to have keep track of new terminology when new terminology is not needed.

LWIBH, the Thin H Line, and other comics that some many not prefer/enjoy are still using a similar format than those who are thought of as pushing boundaries, or who are "more acclaimed"...

Until someone creates an actual new form, there is no need for a new name.

Aren't we all tired of big corporations marketing their same old products with terms like "same good product, great new look/package/size/etc."?

Let's not fall into the same hole.

I, for one, am proud to call what a do both a COMIC and a WEBCOMIC at that.



_________________
frank "damonk" cormier
FRAMED!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
damonk13
Frequent Poster


Joined: 01 May 2001
Posts: 70
Location: l'acadie

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2001 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as i reread my last post, i realize that i may have verged on aggressive...

i do not mean to attack you personally, lyle, but i do strongly disagree with your ideas on this, as well as your implied comment that certain comics are an embarrassment because of their chosen genre/subject matter...

when i see this kind of seeming elitism, i tend to see red...

_________________
frank "damonk" cormier
FRAMED!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
rcar
Consistant Poster


Joined: 31 May 2001
Posts: 103

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2001 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been thinking about the naming issue. What to call the different types of webcomics. There's the newspaper strip type of comic. There's the infinit canvas. There's the on going comic book like story. How can these be named so we know what they are?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Zwol.org Forum Index -> (Web)Comics Theory: ART All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group