Infinite Canvas tool experiment

NatGertler · Post by **NatGertler** » Wed Jan 16, 2002 11:05 pm

I've experimented with a new method to address what I see as drawbacks in the infinite canvas designs. Check it out at http://AAUGH.com/carl/infinite.htm -- you'll need a Flash 5 player.

gazorenzoku · Post by **gazorenzoku** » Thu Jan 17, 2002 3:32 am

Interesting concept. I enjoyed the ride.

1) The rewind to the start button did not work for me... Is it my computer or a problem on the creation side? You might want to check it out.

2) While I did enjoy the way you used Flash, I also enjoy the static stuff that is out there now... It is all great.

Anyhow, I hope to see more stuff like this...

vince

Jack Masters · Post by **Jack Masters** » Thu Jan 17, 2002 1:46 pm

Hmm, interesting. I like the idea of a track that the reader must follow, to keep them from accidently skipping forward or back, but I'd prefer to hold down a button rather then mousing over it.

In general, I think holding a large book in your lap is much more irksome and unwieldy then using scrollbars. And if you have a mouse with one of those wheel-things, vertical scrolling at least is a piece of cake.

Post by **Greg Stephens** » Thu Jan 17, 2002 3:07 pm

Very good experiment. Much easier that dealing with various V- and H-scrollbars.

NatGertler · Post by **NatGertler** » Sat Jan 19, 2002 10:11 am

The back-to-start button is different from the other buttons. You have to click on it, rather than just point to it. This keeps a stray swipe of the mouse from sending you 100 panels back (not that there are 100 panels in the example, of course.)

I would agree with the person who said that vertical scrolling is easier with a mouse wheel. I wouldn't recommend my method for any project where you only scroll vertically -- at that point, it's just as easy to use the scroll bar's scroll-down button, and that way you can stick with the HTML standard.

I'll be working on a version with a few enhancements today. Not sure I'll be able to post it today, though; I'm in mid-move, with half my stuff (including the PC I publish from) in the old location and half (including the Mac that I composed this on) in the new place. (And the cable modem is in the old place, while in the new place I'll be stuck with a dial-up line! sob.)

NatGertler · Post by **NatGertler** » Sat Jan 19, 2002 7:30 pm

Okay, I made a new version with the clear buttons, full-screen appearance and the skip-to-next-panel button (you have to click on that, hovering won't work.)

http://AAUGH.com/carl/infinite2.swf

ragtag · Post by **ragtag** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 12:16 am

The easiest and best way to browse/read an infinite canvas comic...is to use the HAND. Like in Photoshop or Acrobat reader (when zoomed in), you take a hold of the surface and drag it in the direction you want it to go. It's the same method used in almost all 2d and 3d graphics application, where you need to move the document in more directions than just up and down.

I attempted to make a mock-up Flash comics like this just now, but as this is about the second time I've opened Flash I didn't manage to figure it out. Though I know I could easily manage doing this in Director, a software I used a lot a while back. The only possible problem I can see with this method, is that if the comics becomes very long (1000 full color panels) it might become too heavy to navigate around in for most home computers, plus of course take ages to download.

If someone with more Flash know-how than me would like to throw together a simple interface like that, and share with the rest of us, that would be great. Especially, if he/she would be willing to share the source file.

Just my two cents,

Ragnar

gazorenzoku · Post by **gazorenzoku** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 1:00 pm

awesome idea! I am working with Director myself, but I haven't had any experience with Flash yet. "The hand" would be great!

vince

gazorenzoku · Post by **gazorenzoku** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 12:29 am

Hey, I found something you might be interested in looking at, if you haven't seen it already. Check out <A HREF = "http://www.e-merl.com/frame.htm">A Web Comic Tetrad</a> by e-merl. It's in the comics section of his web site.

Then you might want to ask him how he did it so you can share notes on technique and such (or at least so you can get in touch with someone persuing the same sort of thing as you).

vince

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: gazorenzoku on 2002-01-20 23:32 ]</font>

Post by **Greg Stephens** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 1:37 am

On 2002-01-19 23:16, ragtag wrote:
The easiest and best way to browse/read an infinite canvas comic...is to use the HAND.

It's true that the Hand icon is a common (nearly standard, at this point) way to navigate content (text or pictoral) that is larger than the viewable window, but the thing that's less-efficient about the Hand when comparing to this example is that you still have to move the mouse, and often have to pick up the mouse from the mousing-surface (table, desk, mousepad, whatever) and move it back in the direction you started and drag again to navigate long distances. I keep my mouse setting at about twice the default sensativity and I still have to pick it up and move it often when scrolling on the web, to say nothing of graphics applications. The method that Nat has designed required very limited mouse movement and I find that I don't have to pick it up at all AND I don't have to guess as to which way or how much to scroll to see each subsequent "panel".

Now, certainly the Hand icon is far superiour to the V- and H-scrollbars by themselves, but to my mind, it still requires far too much mouse-manipulation and can become as annoying as scrolling by hand.

I agree with Jack thath any comic that any comic which only scrolls in one direction and that can make use of my mouse's scroll-wheel is far more desirable than one which requires dual scroll-bars.

I also quite like the newer, full-screen version of Nat's IC, with the semi-transparent controls. Again- a good experiment!

ragtag · Post by **ragtag** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 7:22 am

Thanx gazorenzoku for the link to that webcomic. I'll need to mail the guy who wrote it and ask him about the technical stuff. Seemed like it was done in Flash to me. Nice stuff.

Yes,l I agree that it requiers quite a lot of mouse movement, as you're pulling the story along all the time...and this is kind of a disadvantage of this method. I often use slow mouse speeds or graphic tablets too.

The comic by e-merl posted above is the first of this kind I've read. One thing I did like about it was that it's non-linear. I found myself taking a sneak peak at panels other places in the story, that I had not gotten to yet following the trail. A little like with a new comic book, where you can flip through the pages before actually reading it from A to Z. He also touches on the option of pick-a-path comics with this method, which could be quite fun.

Maybe the ultimate solution would be a combination interface. Where you could drag as you wish around the surface, as well as having arrow buttons at the bottom of the screen to go to the next or previous panel (or up, down, left and right for that matter). So the reader could choose whichever method he/she prefers.

Ragnar

NatGertler · Post by **NatGertler** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 10:06 am

The hand is a great tool for free exploration, but it requires both more effort and more decision-making to follow the "deliberate sequence" of panels than does the path-based-scrolling of my "machine".

Note: I've come to realize that some browsers are having problems with the full-screen version of my machine, just displaying a bunch of garbled text. I suspect it's a problem with the MIME type that my host puts out for SWF files, but I don't have time to investigate this at the moment. Sorry. For me, Opera and IE work fine, Netscape 4.7 chokes.

Tailsteak · Post by **Tailsteak** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 10:49 am

My computer does that automatically when I press in my mouse wheel.

gazorenzoku · Post by **gazorenzoku** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 11:07 pm

some people have mouses (mice?) that get all slow after a while. Like me. I'm sure proper cleaning & care would take care of that, but the point is that not everyone out there is rarin to go with the mouse.

If your mouse is kind of slow on the draw, using it isn't all that fun. People in that situation should of course take care of the problem. But some people might just skip over your site if it is too inconvinient... And there is no way (at least not yet) for you to reach out and grab that person and knock some sense into them, even if they are a dolt for not taking good care of their mouse. The result: less hits on your site...

I like the conversation that has been going on about using all sorts of different techniques to move along. One of these days I wonder if there will be touch activated monitors where you can drag the thing along with your finger.

Also, for draging in general (like with "the hand"), the size of the box is definitely important to me as a viewer. I have to say that I gave up on e-merl's experiment even though it looked interesting as hell and I really love his stuff, so I knew that the quality would be good all the way through. I just got tired of trying to pull my way through that little space... if it were the entire computer screen, then that would be a different story perhaps.... but then the screen might show more than he wanted it to...

Post by **Greg Stephens** » Tue Jan 22, 2002 12:22 pm

On 2002-01-21 22:07, gazorenzoku wrote:
One of these days I wonder if there will be touch activated monitors where you can drag the thing along with your finger.

Things like that exist today.