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I can't Stop Talking! (concerning the penny arcade strip) Goto page 1, 2  Next
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FurrilTheFox
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2001 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Penny Arcade (www.penny-arcade.com) a rather popular online comic I view religiously, has put up a parody of scott's "I can't stop thinking" series. I thought I'd point this out. At this time, he hasn't updated the news section yet, hard to tell if hes being cynical, silly, or just taking a jab. Online comics earning a living has been something of a sore subject to that sites creators. Thought I'd post this to bend everyones ear.

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[ This Message was edited by: FurrilTheFox on 2001-06-22 03:31 ]
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Scott McCloud
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2001 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Couple this with Jon Rubinstein's angry personal attack, carsonfire flaming me and Chris Crosby complaining about my "ignoring" Keenspot on the panel, and I'd say the Backlash on the strips front is in full swing.

At least P-A is funny.
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FurrilTheFox
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2001 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

your up late scott
Although scoff as they might, online creators will jump on the bandwagon if it works. The idea of your loving creation paying the bills is kind of the new american dream.

[ This Message was edited by: FurrilTheFox on 2001-06-22 04:00 ]

[ This Message was edited by: FurrilTheFox on 2001-06-22 04:01 ]
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Max Leibman
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2001 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can somebody post some links to all these facinating conversations? I think I can find Penny Arcade all right on my own, but I'd like to read these other comments.

One thing in particular caught my attention on PA -- well, in the news section, anyhow, as the comic still hasn't loaded yet. This quote:

Today's strip is basically a parody of this page and the self-proclaimed Lord of Comics Scott McCloud I. People have recommended his work to me on several occasions, both Understanding Comics and the more recent Reinventing Comics. I immediately felt a profound sense of gratitude to Mr. McCloud. I mean, here was this guy, taking time out to speak for all of us who write comics!


Y'know, I don't remember Mr. McCloud EVER proclaiming himself Lord of Comics, or anything even remotely similar, or making any statement about his value to the medium, beyond that he was trying to be a friend to comics, a proponent for comics, etc. (I believe I've read comments to that effect in an interview somewhere).

Moreover, weren't there disclaimers about the universality of what he had to say sprinkled throughout Understanding Comics and Reinventing Comics? I seem to recall a couple times in UC where he said something about how the next generation would probably throw out his theories and come up with something of their own. And he didn't express any sort of anger or disappointment about that whatsoever.

Now, I tend to hold up McCloud's work like he's comics' equivalent of Jakob Nielsen or Richard Feynman (no, Scott's not a Usability engineer or a legendary physics professor, I just mean he's that level of a thinker), and I realize that this view isn't shared by everyone. But still, you'd think somebody who was going to launch an attack on the guy would at least meet him with some sort of logic, some rationale. Exaggerating Scott McCloud's view of himself hardly makes Penny Arcade look smarter. Anybody can blow the truth out of proportion and distort reality to villify the opposition. Anybody worth being taken seriously raises real points with a little more logic to back them up.

Peace out,

Max Leibman

p.s. - I've been waiting for the PA strip in question to download for the entire time I've been typing, and it's still not up.

[ This Message was edited by: Max Leibman on 2001-06-22 08:44 ]
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Max Leibman
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2001 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a quick clarification, in case anybody wants to defend Penny Arcade -- it's not the points made about micropayments I'm attacking, or the strip itself (which did finally load, and is funny, even if it's point is, again, not really backed up by much of anything), but the attack on Scott McCloud, which I think were little more (and little more intelligent) than most flaming in chat rooms by most semi-literate, "Spawn fukkin' rulez!!!" comics fans.
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rcar
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2001 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't remember Scott being self proclaimed lord of comic either. What I really don't understand is all the anger about the micropayments. Sheesh! From the feeling I get from most of the posts is we we like to make enough to pay for our costs. I know Scott threw out some high figures about PvP but he used it what could happen with those numbers. Be we all know those numbers aren't typical and they will drop off if people have to pay. Why is everone so bitter? Is there something wrong with us for wanting to be paid for our efforts?
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NatGertler
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2001 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Folks looking for the Chris Crosby messages Scott referenced above will find them here.
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John2two
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2001 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I read it, Tycho at Penny Arcade's screed boils down to two points:

  • No micropayment system currently exists (so saying that they are the hope of online content publishers is merely wishful thinking).
  • I'm angry that despite my best efforts, my online comic hasn't been able to support me.

No one here disagrees with him on either point.

It's sad that his extreme and valid emotions from point two are boiling over in Scott's direction, but I think we can all sort out the word-stream. I hope he can find peace.

As brother Max says, Peace out--
John
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mayoff
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2001 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's another point, made by both the text post and the strip:

"He imagines that other people - in fact, that everyone - would gladly pay for things if given the chance to do so. That is demonstrably, empirically false - most especially so on the Internet, and most damningly so where content is concerned."
PA's experience is that most people will NOT pay for content if they can have it for free.
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Greg Stephens
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2001 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's actually some good discussion of the whole micropayment issue over in this thread of the Penny-Arcade forum:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/phorum/read.php?f=8&i=16890&t=16890

Not the only thread there discussing both micropayments and Scott's column, but certainly the most thoughtful (and I'm rather surprised that the other threads aren't completely flame-ridden postings, though there is some of that going on).

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damonk13
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2001 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm...

I never realized how much confrontation can occur, even when just organizing conventions and such! Still, I did not feel that any of the involved parties discussing in that particular thread (the comicon one) were getting too hot-headed, which is a good sign. At the end of the day, I think that everyone is trying to work towards a similar goal -- recognition and positive evolution of the comics field, whether it be strip- or long-form, innovative or readitional...

...

As for the Penny Arcade strip, i suppose it's funny if taken as light-hearted parody (which clearly it's not)... But I suppose they are entitled to their opinions and such.

Readers can hopefully decide for themselves what to think of it...

...

Still, all of this conflict just makes me glad I'm a piddly webtoonist hawking his comic wares to a small audience for amusement!

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M
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
PA's experience is that most people will NOT pay for content if they can have it for free.


I haven't been reading Penny Arcade for all that long-- have they tried making money in ways other than with donations, merchandise, and advertising? If they haven't, I'm not sure how they could have experience in the area of whether or not people will pay for content.

Donations seem more about thanking the artist or rewarding them for something you enjoy. Unless the comics creator says "Please don't read my comic until you've donated money" (I don't know of any creator who does), people who don't donate can't exactly be "paying" or "not paying." They may donate in the future, or they may not-- we don't really know until it's too late to donate because the comics creator is gone.

People who pay for merchandise are just paying for the merchandise. Sure, the buyer may think "I'll buy this shirt because I love this comic and have been reading it a lot." And the comics creator does make money off the shirt. But someone who has never read the comic could also just see the shirt, think it was nice, and buy it. Were they paying for the comic? No. They've never read the comic. They're just paying for the shirt.

Advertising-- well, people are "paying with their time" for that, but that's not where the money comes from. The money comes from selling the comic's audience to the advertisers. The audience isn't paying with money, and money's the subject of this discussion.

That's not to say the folks at Penny Arcade don't have an excellent and accurate idea of what their readers will or won't do. Or that micropayments would be at all helpful to them. Or that they should ever try making anyone pay for anything.

It's just that technically, they can't have "experience" with whether or not people will pay for comics online until they've tried making people pay for comics online.

So... was there some point when they tried? Just curious.

--M
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2001-06-23 02:20, M wrote:
So... was there some point when they tried? Just curious.

--M


They have had a system in place for quite some time now.. Whereby people can make any kind of donation they wish.. from 1 cent upwards.. Its not currently working.. So hence, they HAVE tried to adopt a simmilar system.. And it has more or less failed..

You should probably research things a little more before posting stuff like that.. After all this IS supposed to be an intellectual forum right?
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damonk13
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, if you reread M's post, you will notice that she/he makes a specific distinction between DONATIONS and PAYMENTS.

M in fact does point out that PA has been accepting donations, but is asking if PA has ever tried to actually "sell" their content (i.e., not offer the content unless you pay for it somehow first).

And what's with that last comment? It seems like so many people are becoming bellicose on these kinds of threads lately, rather than just discuss and agree/disagree calmly... Aren't we all trying to work towards the same goal? If so, then what's the point of slurring?

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lylebclarke
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2001-06-23 08:30, Anonymous wrote:

You should probably research things a little more before posting stuff like that.. After all this IS supposed to be an intellectual forum right?


I'm not the moderator here, but I'd like to say that I think we should try keep this kind of quibbling out of this forum. M posted a good comment, and then asked a good question, which deserved to be answered sans snarkiness.

Welcome to the forum M.

Cheers
Lyle
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rcar
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"So... was there some point when they tried? Just curious. "

"M' is asking a reasonable question. There is nothing wrong with the person's post. But there in no need to shoot people down. If this forum is going to be nasty, no one will come back and we lose a good forum.

Randy

[ This Message was edited by: rcar on 2001-06-23 12:56 ]
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Greg Stephens
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2001 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I am the moderator and I do tend to be a bit snarky myself from time to time, so far be it from me to jump all over 'anonymous' for that- - though we do want to keep it friendly here, so it's good to see people keeping that in mind.

At any rate, an important distiction that has to be made (over and over again, as it seems) between donation systems and payment systems (micro or not), and P-A categorically hasn't tried a payment system. Many posters on the P-A forum, the PvP forum, the KeenSpot forums, and elsewhere mistakenly refer to Amazon and Paypal donations as 'micropayments' when they are neither payments (they're donations) nor micro (they're generally over one US$). *sigh* We'll just have to keep making that point.

In another thread it was asked why so many of us here seem to be for micropayments and I'd have to say that it's simply because we don't have a workable micropay system yet. Donation systems exist. Advertising systems exist (and seem poised to become only more invasive). Merchandise selling systems exist. But micropayments don't and they could take an important role in the distribution of pure digital content. However, I feel that I'm preaching to the converted here (mostly).

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M
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2001 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You should probably research things a little more before posting stuff like that.. After all this IS supposed to be an intellectual forum right?


Hee. That's cute.


Oh, and you can't spend just 1 cent with either Amazon or Paypal because they both take over 15 cents out of each transaction. I suppose you could mail PA a penny, but you'd still have to buy a stamp. But I'm sure you knew that.

(On a different note, isn't it funny that "Penny Arcade" would be against micropayments? Maybe Nickelodeon won't like them either. )

--M
"Snarky"-- that's one of my favorite words!

edit: Oh, and thanks to Greg for answering my actual question about PA and payment systems.

[ This Message was edited by: M on 2001-06-24 01:31 ]
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2001 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've moderated this post away.

[ This Message was edited by: Greg Stephens on 2001-06-24 14:05 ]
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2001 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Intelectual forum, Fine, just cut the comic book crap, because its not a comic book by definition, a comic book is supposed to be comic, as in funny, the crap you draw is a bunch of pretencious look-at-me self-proclaimed-intelectual need-to-get-laid Idiotic strips

This shoot is worst than Chritianity.

I'm leaving this post because it's marginally less offensive than the one above, but please let's not respond to it, okay? Thanks.

[ This Message was edited by: Greg Stephens on 2001-06-24 14:07 ]
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Jack Masters
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2001 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I made a comic too!

http://castlezzt.net/diagonalredwriting/vase.htm

It is about the gap between two ways of thinking. Also, it features Willard Scott hiding under a banana peel.

As viewed through a kaleidoscope.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2001 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be quite honest I must agree with the guys over at PA. This whole crazy idea of "micropayments" would not work successfully for most if not all possible applications.

If Napster were to start charging for services, why not switch over to LimeWire or Gnotella or some other Gnutella software.
People use the resources because they are free and supposedly unhibited. Look at Napster when they installed blocks. Their usage fell considerably and the ability to find songs got very, very hard.

Most people who read these online strips are probably college age and younger. And I am sure most of them don't have a credit card to charge these miniscule "micropayments" on.

A few friends of mine along with myself may soon be starting a web comic with a similiar satirical view at the world and specifically gaming much like PA. I personally would not make anyone pay to read that comic.

Trust me, if half the comics online were worth paying for (not that I don't love PA and think it is great), they would be syndicated and published in half the newspapers in America and making some real money.



Signing off,

The BDJ



P.S. - I have to agree with TB about Scott McCloud. His referring to him as the "self-proclaimed" lord of comics is in reference to what I see as a cocky, know-it-all attitude towards the field of comics.

Also what a hypocrite to offer up this lame brain micropayment system while he himself doesn't even use one.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2001 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is, Scott is a world famous published artist and his perspective on placing content on the is completely different to that of an unknown artist
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Greg Stephens
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2001 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scott might disagree with that, but I know that I certainly do. The whole idea is that the Internet levels the playing field. Professional "name" authors have to stand side-by-side with amateurs, and each is only a click away from the other thanks to the web. Since people will generally only pay for what they like, the chances that what they like may be made by a "name" author are the same as that they might like something by a relative unknown.

Saying that Scott McCloud's work is worth paying more for than, say, mine simply on the grounds that more people know his work is rather baseless. The perceived value of the work which decides whether or not you will pay for it is solely determined by how it appeals to you.

Now, if one's percieved value of a thing is based on how well known that thing's author may be-- Well, then that's an entirely different discussion.

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