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How many have had this kind of reaction to your work?
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troybuddha
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 4:58 pm    Post subject: How many have had this kind of reaction to your work? Reply with quote

Just thought I'd get a reaction from some people who might understand where I'm coming from on this on....

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Surlyben
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get that from zinesters and minicomics people sometimes. If it's not print, it's not real... Then I talk about how easy it is to publish, and how I can reach a large audience, and the quiet right down...
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losttoy
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now the thing here is ... yes, there is this social stigmatism about being a cartoonist and how comics are "low art" ... but, people really do not care too much any more about it.

The Simpsons are on primetime. Dibert had its show too. X-Men and Spiderman were actualy sucessfull movies. Everybody reads the funnies in the paper. Comics are a sucessful industry going back before the Yellow Kid was even thought of. There lies the point ...

In the current economy, if you have a job at all, you are doing something good. Unemployment rates are the highest they have been for around ten years now. If you are working, getting paid, doing something creative and doing something you like, then that is something to be proud of. People are begining to understand that comics can be an expression just as any other art. Still people do look down on comics as a art. However, in these days in ages it is much more sugessfull to be working in the commerical medium. More people in the world know who Charles Shultz but can not name a modern artist.

And the web? Well the internet bubble may have brust, but there is still a strong viable market online. As a graphic designer, I have been looking for work a lot lately ... and when I tell people I am looking for a job they all ask me if I can web design. It is always hard to tell people how it is like apples and oranges and how there is more IT in web design. However, when I search on the job engines, I find more web design jobs than graphic design jobs.

Personally, I work in a related feild. I am a graphic designer where I have to deal with text, layouts, photos and graphics everyday. Most graphic designers use clip art at one point or another, but how many can draw them? That is why when somebody asks, I do not call myself an cartoonist, but I call myself an illustrator. I draw pictures for logos, posters, websites, etc. I am also illustrating a play written by a published playwrite. I also post illustrations on my website and someday hope to turn it into a commerical website with yearly subcriptions. That usualy works for people.

At least that is my veiws and opinions.
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ragtag
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I think web design doesn't need to be that technical at all. I've known and worked with people doing web design, without knowing how to write HTML or use Flash. They were designers that did the graphics, layout and text, then someone else coded the page and put it online. So the designers were basically only working in Photoshop, Illustrator etc., and then handed pictures over to someone else that was more competant at coding and technical stuff.

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troybuddha
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 8:51 am    Post subject: no this was an interesting reaction.... Reply with quote

Hi All,

This was the most interesting reaction to my work thus far. A co-worker saw a comic he appeared in and was so offended he went and filed a complaint against me at work, of course he didn't bother talking to me about it. Upon examining the comic in question (which in the end was not making fun of him at all but how I get when I'm tired and hungry.) I decided to remove it rather than hurt his feelings any more. But now I feel like I've caved to pressure from my boss to change my comic, when I don't think it has anything to do with work and they shouldn't be involved at all. The Comic is produced on my time, with my money so they should just stay out of it. Sorry I'm just ranting....

Keith
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Eric F Myers
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:12 pm    Post subject: rant Reply with quote

Keith, you have a first amendment right to say whatever you please in your art. As long as you didn't mention the coworker by his real name. Then that would be slander, but even then it would have to be so disrupting to his life that it effects his job and personal life. And if a web comic can do that to you then you need serious help.

Does your employer have anything to do with your comic besides the occasional plot? Do they pay for your site? Advertise there? Are you creating the panels outside of your head during their time and uploading them through their system? If not then they have no right to tell you what you can and can't do on your own time.

I haven't been doing this comic thing for very long, but I'm sure that if and when a situation like that came up I would tell my boss to fuck off and that the coworker question can just deal with it. I can't stand it when a company tries to put an employee in there place. I say you should put the comic back up on your site.
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Kris Lachowski
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: rant Reply with quote

efm wrote:
I would tell my boss to fuck off... I say you should put the comic back up on your site.


hell yeah!
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troybuddha
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 7:16 pm    Post subject: Re: rant Reply with quote

efm wrote:
Keith, you have a first amendment right to say whatever you please in your art. As long as you didn't mention the coworker by his real name. Then that would be slander, but even then it would have to be so disrupting to his life that it effects his job and personal life. And if a web comic can do that to you then you need serious help.

Does your employer have anything to do with your comic besides the occasional plot? Do they pay for your site? Advertise there? Are you creating the panels outside of your head during their time and uploading them through their system? If not then they have no right to tell you what you can and can't do on your own time.

I haven't been doing this comic thing for very long, but I'm sure that if and when a situation like that came up I would tell my boss to fuck off and that the coworker question can just deal with it. I can't stand it when a company tries to put an employee in there place. I say you should put the comic back up on your site.


This was pretty much my reaction too, and the reaction of the person right above me in our little chain of command. None of this is done on company time unless you count the fact that I do some of the sketchs during my lunch, the only argument I can think of for it being a work related issue is I tell people about my site at work. No one is ever mentioned by name except me so I think I'm fine in terms of any legal issues. Of course now that I've taken it down I feel like I should put it back but I'm trying to look at it from every point of view.... I just thought I'd get a few more points of view here.

Keith
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Tim Mallos
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would make a comic about a whiny person at work who thinks everything is about them.

Tim
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Greg Stephens
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, you should be able to get a good comic out of it, even if it's only a comic which is asking this very question that you're asking right now (rather than making a comic about any person, make it about the situation).
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troybuddha
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been very tempted to start work on a comic about this... maybe after the holidays I'll start one.

Keith
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William G
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got here late, so forgive me if I dont have the full story, but tell me if this is correct;

-You made a comic that was about your coworker.

-They saw it and got hurt.

-And then your boss asked /told you to take it down because they didnt want a pile of shit flying about the office.

-You do as he asked, but you came online to complain about it.

-Everyone in this thread started screaming how important freedom of speach is, even if that freedom was being used irresponsibly.

Is this right?
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Eric F Myers
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:28 pm    Post subject: freedom of speach is never used irresponsibly Reply with quote

William Beckerson wrote:
Everyone in this thread started screaming how important freedom of speach is, even if that freedom was being used irresponsibly.


Why do you think that he used his freedom of speech irresponsibly? I've read several post on you site and see that you frequently complain about the children you teach, your bosses, and you co-workers. What if your student's parents, your boss, or your co-workers read what you had on your site and then told you to take it down because it was offensive to them? Would you?

I strongly believe that everyone has the right to say what they want, even if I don't agree with what they are saying. Granted in some circumstances you might have to deal with the consequences of what you say, but what he does (or draws) in his privete life (within legal limits) should have no bearing on his work.
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Greg Stephens
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Though I agree with William's point, I think it's not quite correct to characterize this thread as everybody screaming about the First Amendment. That was only mentioned once. You are, however, absolutely correct that "freedom of speech" in no way equates to "freedom from the consequences of speech."

People's private lives often leak into their work lives and vice versa. The very idea of a separation between the two is largely artificial and a very 20th century notion, to boot, with roots way back in the industrial revolution. The fact is, if you say something about a certain party and word gets back to them of what you said, they're not going to care if you said it on company time and turf or on your own time and turf.

I stick by my previous comment that a good response would be to create a new comic about the quandry. Since he's already respectful of the situation and clearly didn't intend to cause a problem, I don't see any reason that such a comic wouldn't be fairly resonably done.
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William G
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

efm wrote:

Why do you think that he used his freedom of speech irresponsibly?

Like I said, I dont know the full story, but from what I read it seems that he put a comic up that insulted his coworker, and his coworker saw it. I admit to working without all of the facts, but it seems to me that using the internet as away to insult someone is using free speech irresponsibly. Hopefully Troy can clear this up for me.

Of course, we're all assuming that the American fist amendment applies to the internet and everyone from around the world who uses it, but that's an entirely different debate.

Quote:
I've read several post on you site and see that you frequently complain about the children you teach, your bosses, and you co-workers. What if your student's parents, your boss, or your co-workers read what you had on your site and then told you to take it down because it was offensive to them? Would you?

I would deeply consider it. But only in regards to the boy "Tom" I wrote about. He's just a kid, and criticising him for things he cant really control was unfair of me. (In fact, you've made me consider ditching it because it would be the responsible thing far an adult to do in regards to a child.) As for the employers, I'd guess that them screwing me over would make me unsympathetic towards their requests.

The only reason I have kept that first rant I wrote (near two years ago, now) online was so I wouldnt be accused of trying to cover up my past stupidities. As I look at it now, I do find that my attitudes and POV have changed a great deal from the "yokel just off the plane" I was then to the experienced man I am now. Unlike a lot of people, I dont go around with the attitude that my shit doesnt stink, and I'm going to leave my hypocracies out in the open.

If you look at my more recent writings, you'll notice that I've pretty much softened up on it.

Quote:
I strongly believe that everyone has the right to say what they want, even if I don't agree with what they are saying.

I'm from Canuckistan. We feel that you need to keep your yap shut sometimes, and choose your times to let it out. I guess it's the difference between being the world's biggest elephant (America), and being one of the fleas on it's back(Canada).

Quote:
Granted in some circumstances you might have to deal with the consequences of what you say,

In all circumstances you should be willing to deal with what you say or write. I know our culture has done what it can to remove the term "Personal responsibilty" from our vocabularies, but I feel Troybuddha did the right thing by removing the comic. He didnt want an unpleasant office situation, he wanted to keep his job secure. This isnt selling out free speech, or anything like that, this is a man trying to keep food on the table.

Responsibilty.

Quote:
People's private lives often leak into their work lives and vice versa. The very idea of a separation between the two is largely artificial and a very 20th century notion, to boot, with roots way back in the industrial revolution. The fact is, if you say something about a certain party and word gets back to them of what you said, they're not going to care if you said it on company time and turf or on your own time and turf.

Exactly.
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Eric F Myers
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:27 pm    Post subject: we need to see that comic Reply with quote

Keith, where are you? I think that we need to see the comic in question. Or it at least needs to be explained better.

I don't think that the comic was making fun of anyone, and it didn't name anyone. It was just that the person didn't like how they were portrayed in the comic. Then the guy filed a work complaint against Keith. Shouldn't a "WORK complaint" be WORK related?

William Beckerson wrote:
...I'm going to leave my hypocracies out in the open.

William, if you no longer feel the same way about your post I don't think anyone would hold it against you. Everyone is entitled to change their mind.

William Beckerson wrote:
In all circumstances you should be willing to deal with what you say or write.

Yes, you are right. Everything you say or do has consequences. It's just that most of things people say or do through out the day are consequence free (unless your married, then everything that you say or do is wrong ).

William Beckerson wrote:
this is a man trying to keep food on the table.

If someone's job is in danger of termination because of something that was said on someone's own time, as long as it doesn't hurt the business (i.e.. a McDonalds employee yelling at people outside the store that "meat is murder"), then that person should probably get a lawyer to sue for unlawful termination.

Keith shouldn't take down a comic because his boss told him to. He should or shouldn't take it down because he does or doesn't want to. But speaking from an artist perspective, nothing should stifle your art. It comes from within. And when someone or something imposes on it, that art becomes less true.
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troybuddha
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I've been trying to get our new pc up and running....
Let's see the biggest problem the co-worker had was the way I drew him which was balding and with a large chin.... I'm sorry but everyone I draw has a big chin and it really is not my fault if he's balding!! As for dealing with consquence of speech I firmly believe that but if you have a problem with me then it's best addressed to me.
The only reason I took the comic down was because I didn't want to hurt this person's feelings any more than I had already. If people from work are going to end up in the comic I usually run the idea by them first, which I believe I did in this case but he claims I didn't so.... But it's all a moot point cause he decided he needed to work with a better class of people, I'm not sure if he meant the employees or the customers....

Anyway I'm going to go to bed now. Have a great night!

Keith
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William G
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2004 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess it's all become totally irrelivent now.
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Tim Mallos
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:21 am    Post subject: Yeah... Reply with quote

I did a number of strips inspired by my work experience.
I made the characters composites, and shuffled most names, but they were recognizable to people in the work environment. It would have been difficult and embarrasing for people to really say "Hey, that's me", and this too was by design.

The strip was cathartic at the time, for me and my embattled co-workers.

Once I was out of the situation, I lost the angst that had fueled the strip, but may draw up a number of planned strips that I had sketches for.

I'm rambling. My point is I can remember putting solid thought into how far to go lampooning specific people at work. It's a touchy topic. Until you get laid off.

I did my best not to be hurtful, but you never know how people will react.www.fifthdigit.com/comics/thisisatest/

Tim
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Eric F Myers
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:46 am    Post subject: ha Reply with quote

That's probably why I never draw people I know, even if they ask me to. I don't want them to feel embarrassed around me because I noticed that one of their earlobes is bigger than the other. But I guess now you can put the comic back up with no worries.
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