comics for people who don't read comics...

[gazorenzoku]

Every now and then I see a comic book that is supposed to be "the comic for people who don't read comics". These kinds of comics are coming out more and more these days... I suppose it all started right around the Watchmen/Dark Knight days.

What are the comics you would elect to show to friends/family who don't read comics (but who like reading something)?

Here is what I was thinking.....

1) I was thinking that From Hell is the most "novel-like" comic I've ever read, but it might be too heavy for people who like lighter reading material.

2) Jar of Fools

3) Jimmy Corrigan

4) The first X-Force graphic novel by Milligan & Allred


...Though it all depends on the person you are selecting the comic for. One non-comic reading friend of mine recently picked up a Hellboy comic and loved it. A lot of people say Sandman is the one, but I disagree...

Also, what web-comics would you select?

Do I have too much time on my hands, thinking about these things? It's not an incredibly important topic, but slightly interesting perhaps....

Vince

[reinx]

3) Jimmy Corrigan

4) The first X-Force graphic novel by Milligan & Allred


...Though it all depends on the person you are selecting the comic for.

I agree here, it TOTALLY depends on the person. I've given Jimmy Corrigan to some people who DO read comics and they dont like it/dont get it/dont understand. I tried Sam Kieth's "4 women" with moderate success (on females especially) and I'm thinking that Bone would work good. As for web comics, maybe Nowhere Girl?

No, you dont have free time on your hands, I think most of us are trying to convert our non-comics friends, if for nothing else, so that maybe they can "get" what it is we do

Trying to get my girlfriend to go to DragonCon ... very unsuccessful so far... hahaha

[ragtag]

I would try to find something in the genre that the person likes in films or books.

To book readers I would recomend Will Eisner, something like A Contracdt with God or a short comics collection. Or stories like Stuck Rubber Baby, by Howard Cruse. Hey, I might even do some self-promotion and recomend my own stuff. Also Thieves & Kings is excellent for fantasy fans. To some of my friends I might also recomend The Playboy or Finder. And for those that like action movies and mysteries, I would suggest Bananafish. There are a lot of good comics out there for people who are not used to reading comics.

Though I don't think that Watchmen is a good first book for none comics readers, as it's very much an "in joke". It's a comic that in a way deconstructs the superhero genre and as such will be of most interest to those familiar with the superhero genre. That is comics fans.

When my dad first read my comics twice it opened my eyes to something. He didn't like it too much the first time, but the second time he found it much better, as that time around he was reading the pictures as well. So I figure a lot of people don't know how to read comics. They will read the text, but not the pictures...and will thus only get half the story. They will look at the picture, but they won't READ them nor combine them into a sequnce of pictures that tells a story.

Cheers,
Ragnar

[gazorenzoku]

Here are my cruddy opinions about some of the responses... my opinions are cruddy and do not represent the opinions of me or myself in any way.

I've given Jimmy Corrigan to some people who DO read comics and they dont like it/dont get it/dont understand.

Yeah, that's true... I know what you mean.

Jimmy Corrigan and "Frank", are, in my opinion, the best examples of "pure" comics out there (at least that I have seen). They do not compromise... They could not exist as movies, books, telephone conversations, wallpaper, or anything else other than comics. But that is kind of off the subject... (an off the subject comment on a forum? G*d help us!)

I tried Sam Kieth's "4 women" with moderate success (on females especially)

God, that ended horribly. Sam Kieth was billed as yet another "literate comics writer" (which is an insult to every superhero writer out there...), but he sure turns out a crummy ending... And he needs to get a better grasp on characterization and stop trying to force it. Everyone stands up and states their life philosophy over and over in his books... Though the middle of his story had a lot of meat to it and was definitely thrilling. I loved the middle issues (was it 2-4?)...

But, there are people who like novels that read like that, so they might enjoy his stuff...

and I'm thinking that Bone would work good.

I haven't got around to reading that (please don't make fun of me, I'm just a kid). I imagine that it might be up there with Jimmy Corrigan and Frank as far as being a discovery of what "pure" comics can do...

No, you dont have free time on your hands,

Thanks... actually, I'm not supposed to have free time on my hands since I am in the middle of a very serious painting right now (with a tight deadline). That's why I'm responding so in depth to this message... heh heh heh... I better wrap it up before my mom whips me (oh yeah!)

To book readers I would recomend Will Eisner, something like A Contracdt with God or a short comics collection.

Agree

Though I don't think that Watchmen is a good first book for none comics readers, as it's very much an "in joke". It's a comic that in a way deconstructs the superhero genre and as such will be of most interest to those familiar with the superhero genre. That is comics fans.

Agree.

So I figure a lot of people don't know how to read comics. They will read the text, but not the pictures...and will thus only get half the story. They will look at the picture, but they won't READ them nor combine them into a sequnce of pictures that tells a story

Agree.

vince

p.s. That thing about my mom whipping me was a joke. Also a joke was that thing about me being a kid. Also a joke is my big failure of a life. Oh, wait, that isn't a joke, that was meant to be like that.... Put it back the way you found it... just leave it on the shelf... yeah, that'll be nice... can I have some more spelt with that? Thanks.

p.p.s. I appologize for the above. All of it.

[InkAddict]

Maybe I'm just breaking down already-trodden doors, but, I believe the one comic to surpass every other in this type of discussion is the "MAUS" series.

It's very novel-like, and proves in one go that comics can be...
...an adult entertainment too,
...gripping and emotionally mature,
...sometimes very serious,
...original,
...art,
...not a waste of time,
...educational,
...way beyond superhero stories.

On the other hand, as to the general train of thought "comics are illustrated stories", Neil Gaiman's "Fade to noise" is the comic most likely to justify the use of images to enhance, tell and carry the story (instead of just illustrating it).

These two comics were the comics that set a few of my friends on their way to mature comics. Two of my friends even said to me: "I never thought comics could be like this too! It's like a book, but in comic form"

Superheroes (even original ones like "the Sandman") tend to scare comicophobe readers ("fear of comics"?) away, for some reason. Probably because there aren't many superhero "books", I believe.

[Alexander D.]

When I wanted my Mom to understand why I was interested in writing comics (she worried that I was going to "squander my talent"), the books I gave her were:

A Contract with God - Will Eisner
MAUS - Art Spieglman
Breakfast After Noon - Andi Watson

All three worked very well, leaving her far more enthusiastic about my aspirations. Since the first two have already been discussed, let me say a few words about Breakfast After Noon.

The great thing about this book is that it really delves into very ordinary problems. The main topic of the book is unemployment, and how that affects our self worth and our ability to handle our relationships. It's something that almost anyone can relate to, especially in the current economy. But it's all very simply told, and is actually a pretty quick read, so it's engrossing without being a huge time commitment. All valuable attributes for any entrant in the "Comics for People Who Don't Read Comics" lexicon.

As for Webcomics -- well, I publish an online literary magazine that includes comics. And one of the main criteria for the pieces I publish is that they be accessible to non-comics readers. So for some of my recommendations, you can just read my lit mag (www.shadesofdecember.com). There's only one issue up right now, but the new one will be published on October 1.

But to answer the question more specifically -- Nowhere Girl is a good choice, but my #1 recommendation would be Derek Kirk. And depending on the person, I think Cuentos de la Frontera can also be a good choice. Near Life Experience is another one. I would also like to say Makeshift Miracle, but I think the pacing there might be too slow -- there's just not enough new material in each update to keep a new reader coming back. But once the story's finished, and you can read the whole thing at once, I think it might work very well.

[gazorenzoku]

yeah, that's right... Maus... I don't know why I forgot of that one...

I imagine that Maus could be called #1 simply because out of all the titles mentioned here, I think it might satisfy the broadest range of people. Though if one person doesn't like it, then it certainly isn't the best for that one person....

I suppose that the good thing about having all these other works out now is that before, after Maus there wasn't really anything else to read. It was like, "wow, comics could be good.... could be.... but aren't." Now someone can get hooked with Maus and then go on to other great works. Of course they could always come in through another door, like From Hell or A Contract with God...

Afterall, the main goal is to get them to the point where they are ready to buy a Green Lantern fan-power-ring and bicker about X-Men continuity

vince

[Alexander D.]

Skipping back to Sam Keith for a bit -- he actually does have some potential use here. The Maxx was the first comic my wife started reading, after having seen the MTV cartoon. Granted, she didn't expand beyond that for years, but she didn't have anyone giving her incentive to either.

Once she and I started dating, and I was dragging her into comic shops, though, she stayed open-minded since she had enjoyed The Maxx so much. Pretty soon she discovered Breakfast After Noon, and she's been a regular comics reader every since.

In any case, I liked 4 Women, although that might only be because I naturally compare it to Keith's previous attempt, that crappy Zero Girl book.

[reinx]

Somebody earlier in the post said that sandman wasnt on the list, but I've actually gotten some people to read the first sandman TPB and then they were like "that was great! do you have the next one?" and I do, but I dont have the 3rd one. d'oh! dont disregard all of those DC Vertigo books. But you can disregard Marvel's Max crap. There's like 2 minutes of reading for $3.

I'll have to check out this one "breakfast after noon". A friend of mine (we were discussing this topic) said ElfQuest, which I wouldnt pick, but there are a lot of fantasy reading people out there and ElfQuest is about as good as they're going to get.

[gazorenzoku]

Usually I think people who don't read comics aren't going to get turned on by fantasy (ElfQuest), cheap gimicks like a "new line of deities" (i.e. Sandman), or poor writing (Sam Kieth)... I think of them as "serious novel readers"... I guess I was thinking that they were all like my father....

But I suppose that there are lots of people out there who might be reading cheap romance books, cheap fantasy books, etc., who just don't read comics. For those people, the cheap trick, non-superhero comics might just work...

vince

[losttoy]

I must agree that "Maus" and "Contract with God" are GREAT comics and are good for non-comic readers. I know Maus was read by everybody in high school. However since I do not own those, I can't let my friends barrow it, only reccumend they go to the library.

Ah yes ... the trying to get a non-comic reader to read comics. I general have this pleasure quite a bit, especialy since I married one (so I will use my wife as an example).

When I first married my wife, it was pulling teeth to get her to even hold a comic book. Sure she reads books everyday and enjoys several genres. I decided that since she is a J.R.R. Tolkien reader I would try to give her a fantasy comic first. "A Wizard's Tale" written by Kurt Busiek and painted by David Wenzel (who happens to illustrate for books like Del Rey's comic adaption of Tolkien's "The Hobbit" and NBM's "Fairy Tales of the Brothers Grimm"). After bugging her a week to just read "A Wizard's Tale" She did and fell in love with. To this day she makes reference to the toad. She admited that she was wrong about comics, although then didn't read another one for a long time.

I then tried a different approuch. A novel of a comic book ... "Hellboy: The Lost Army" written Christopher Golden with illustration by creator Mike Mignola. She read the first chapter and stopped reading before the story really got started. I am not sure what happened, but it did not seem to work, however I would still suggest this idea.

Then I pulled out "Bone" to re-read. I started reading it myself, letting my wife look over my sholder with curiousity. I then would show her some choice scenes and art and she liked it. So she asked if she could read it. BIG HIT! "Bone" is great for new readers. Jeff Smith's art is clean, crisp, intriguing, fun, fanciful ... just everything you look for ink work. His story telling ablities are wonderful! The pacing is great. It introduces each character slowly so we get to know and love them. The range of characters are just real. Some try to do good, but faulter. Some try to take advantage of situtaions for their own profit, but find that deep down inside they do the right thing. There is a very complicated fantasy story about dragons, rat-people, an acient people, and the "dreaaming" ... but does not shove the plot in your face. It's light hearted that will make you laugh and bring a smile to your face, yet very serious and scary at times. My wife is now hooked and asking me when we can go to the local comic store to get more.

Then when I got her reading, I slipped her "Strangers in Paradice". Let me tell you, this is a comic that is a must for any female comic book reader (and a joy for men too). It has characterization, solid art, it has intriguing and complicated storyline and sub-plots. Yet it's strength is in simplicity ... the story is about two women. That's all. They have their stories. They have their hard times and unique stories, but they are any woman. They are very easy to relate to, even in extreme situtions. My wife is also hooked to this comic and demains to go to the comic store to get the next trade paperback collection.

Other comics that I kind are good for new readers are "Hellshock" Vol. 2 #1-3 (but not Vol. 1!!!), "Friends of Maxx" #1, "A Touch of Silver" and "Grendel" are among other choices. I do try to stear away from superheroes when I do, but there are some good ones like "Kingdom Come", "Savage Dragon" or "Madman" that work. "Kabuki" is rather popular with my non-comic friends, once they get past the first book. David Mack's art is amazing. I gave my mom "Hellshock" Vol. 2 and she was impressed with the story and art. I also gave her various C Scott Morse stories like "Visitations" "Souldwind" worked rather well in storytelling, but she didn't quite get into it. I'm going to try "Soulwind" to my wife, because I really do think it's a good story.

On a side note, I want to buy "Cages" by Dave McKean. It seems to fit in this type of catagory. The collection is $50, so it'll wait a while first. Anybody read it?

[Greg Stephens]

There are many good comics out there, it's just a matter of suggesting a story that the person would enjoy.

I've been giving the hardcover volumes of Bone to my mother as they come out and, though I'm sure she's not as enthralled by it as I am, she seems to enjoy them. Interestingly, she does think enough of them to have offered them to one of my cousins to read. Here's a quote from her email:

I forgot to tell you that Katy picked up the latest Bone books as soon as she walked into the house. I brought downstairs the complete set and she had it all read by Thursday.

So between my mother, me and my cousin (who's how old? 14? 15?), that's a pretty good sampling of people who can read and enjoy Bone.

Also, as I now remember, my mother had read "Maus" before I did. It had been recommended to her by one of the other teachers at school (a man who I'd had as an English teacher back in the day) and she then recommended it to me.

[Alexander D.]

Bone is a good one -- and a good followup to it would be Castle Waiting.

Once upon a time, Strangers in Paradise would have been one of the first things to spring to mind for me. I would still recommend the early collections. But the more recent stuff has gotten a bit convoluted and even nonsensical.

In addition to Breakfast After Noon, I would also suggest Dumped and Slow News Day, also by Andi Watson, but I would definitely start with BAN.

Soulwind is easily one of my favorite stories. Morse's writing and art both fascinate me. But I have a hard time thinking of this as a good introductory comic -- the way it jumps around in chronology and genre and cycles through vastly different art styles could be very confusing to the uninitiated.

As to the "Serious Novel Reader" -- I think one of the best books to recommend might be Stray Bullets. The way the stories all stand alone, and yet are intricately linked has a lot of appeal. And it's incredibly well-written.

[gazorenzoku]

I just remembered something that may have something to do with this thread.... Personally, I like certain kinds of stories in one medium and don't care for the exact same kind of story in another medium. For example: I love fantasy/sci-fi in the t.v. or movie format, but don't care too much for them in comics and totally do not like them in book form (unless it is by a really good author, like Azimov or something). I don't know why, but I will watch any sci-fi or fantasy show or movie, no matter how "cheap" it is. I just can't get enough. Of course I do love in depth stories with subtle characterization and what not, but give me a trashy sci-fi or fantasy show and I'll be glued to the t.v...... It just doesn't work as a book for me, though.... I don't get into reading stuff that is trying for a world record for the usage of words like "behold", "betwixt", and "summon"... just show me the guy in armor, thanks.

I'll go for superheroes in comics, t.v., and movies, but not books (but maybe that's because I just haven't seen any good superhero books)...

Anyhow, no matter how petty the reason for my prejudice is, the important thing to remember is that some people might possess really strong prejudices just like me... and depending on how strong the prejudice is, it might be futile to fight against it, even if you are convinced what you are giving them to read is the best there is...

And, even more importantly, just because a person likes a certain kind of novel does not mean that they will like the same kind of story in a comic.

vince

[gazorenzoku]

...fantasy (ElfQuest), cheap gimicks like a "new line of deities" (i.e. Sandman), or poor writing (Sam Kieth)
vince

Just for the record, I love ElfQuest.

vince

[japanimationfist]

Strangers in Paradise! Until two or three months ago I had never even heard of it (yes, I live in a back water), but my uncle, who used to work in a factory which printed comics for various companies, gave me about a thousand comics he'd had in his basement, that he had brought home from work. In the boxes were two or three issues of Strangers in Paradise, an issue of Powers, and a few issues of Astro City, none of which I had ever read before. The rest was mostly Image crap, which though well drawn, did very little for me in the narrative sense. The other three, however, blew me away.

Not long after I discovered that my girlfeind had been a Strangers in Paradise fan in university. I didn't know that she read comics, and when I asked her about it I discovered that she wasn't, or at least she hadn't been before she stumbled across SIP in her dorm.

Since then we have been picking up the trade paperbacks, two at a time (we each buy one) every month or so. I can't believe how hooked I am. I had all but given up on conventional comic books, and conventional comic book art, but Terry Moore is doing some terrific stuff in there. I actually care about the characters, and find myself worrying what wil happen to them.

Apart from SIP, I have read much of what's been mentioned, including Maus and Soulwind, and I know that there are probably several good ones that would work to bring people into comics. My favourites, most recently, have been Jar of Fools, Berlin, and Goodbye Chunky Rice. Like most of you, I would love to see comics reach a wider audience, and I suspect that will happen some day, but right now I kind of like the feeling that I am in on something great, like a fantastic discovery, waiting to be broken.

[gazorenzoku]

but my uncle, who used to work in a factory which printed comics for various companies, gave me about a thousand comics he'd had in his basement, that he had brought home from work.

Wow, that sounds like the dream job, or at least the job with the best benifits I can imagine! Sign me up!

vince

[losttoy]

All my uncle does is work on mainframes on computers that analize produces and boring math stuff. Hey Bill, if your uncle wants to get rid of some of these comics (even the Image ones) I'll take them.

As for SIP, like I said, I love it. Alexander D said

But the more recent stuff has gotten a bit convoluted and even nonsensical.

All I can say is I haven't seen the newest stuff. I have only gotten as far as the "High School" issues before money got tight and I haven't been to the store lately. I am egar for the next trade though no matter how "convoluted" it might be reported.

[Alexander D.]

All I can say is I haven't seen the newest stuff. I have only gotten as far as the "High School" issues before money got tight and I haven't been to the store lately. I am egar for the next trade though no matter how "convoluted" it might be reported.

To ammend my comment a bit -- I'm still enjoying SiP, and still look forward to the new issues. I don't want to give you the impression that I think it all suddenly turned to crap. It's still good -- just not as engrossing as it once was.

The problem, I think, is that most of the current plot lines really should have been tied up a couple of years ago already. But he's resisting that, and some of the contortions he's gone through to keep the story going have turned it into something more akin to a daytime soap than to real drama.

The other thing that frustrates me is that we've still barely learned anything about David's past.

[gazorenzoku]

In my opinion, "comics for people who don't read comics..." is just an advertising slogan they put in some books to attract a wider public.

and what exactly is wrong with that?

[Alexander D.]

The kind of person that don't read comics, or simply have stereotyped image of what comics are, will look at the book in the shelf and say: "Well, this is different, let me see what its all about"...

Well, yes, that's precisely the idea. I think that's how we'd all like to see it work.

The kind of person that don't read comics, or simply But of course, if someone really "doesn't read comics" he will probably not be around that shelf in the first place...

No, they wouldn't likely be browsing the shelf themselves. But that doesn't mean this label can't be effective. What "comics for people who don't read comics" translates to is more accurately "comics that comics readers should give to their friends who don't read comics." It's a way of labeling the tools that we, as comics readers, can use to introduce comics to the people we know who don't read them. And if having that "comics for people who don't read comics" label helps make our friends more receptive to it, then all the better.

[Guest]

That’s interesting. I never though about "introducing comics" to other people who usually don't like to read them.

[losttoy]

But of course, if someone really "doesn't read comics" he will probably not be around that shelf in the first place... Its like advertising "Meat for vegetarians"

Have you seen the frozen food idle in the Boca/Morning Star Farms/GardenBurger section in your local grocery store? Let me tell you, I became a vegetarian five years ago, but I still enjoy a burger. And these are not your father's veggie-burgers ... these are good! They have every kind of fake meat there that you can imagine; chicken; beef; sausage; ham; peperoni; ribs; turkey; etc. Some are made with soy, some are made with vegetable protein, some are a mixture of various veggies.

Now it is a matter of opinion that these veggie-meat items are better the real thing. They also are more healthier for you. BUT (and here is where the comic book anology comes in) the general public idea of what a veggie burger is something that is not edible. Comics have a wide variety and higher quality then the general public believes. Marketing CAN be done to sell veggie burgers to you meat eaters as you can have "comics for people who don't read comics"

[Alexander D.]

Have you seen the frozen food idle in the Boca/Morning Star Farms/GardenBurger section in your local grocery store? Let me tell you, I became a vegetarian five years ago, but I still enjoy a burger. And these are not your father's veggie-burgers ... these are good! They have every kind of fake meat there that you can imagine; chicken; beef; sausage; ham; peperoni; ribs; turkey; etc. Some are made with soy, some are made with vegetable protein, some are a mixture of various veggies.

Boca just came out with a sausage and pepperonit pizza. Dee-licious! I used to be vegetarian, but even though I'm eating meat again, I still enjoy Boca products. I prefer a real burger to the Boca burger, but Boca sausage is WAY better than the real thing. And even my father-in-law, who is totally anti-vegetarian, likes Boca burgers.

If only we could get restaraunts to start carrying Boca burgers instead of those awful Gardenburgers, the world would be a better place.

Oh, yeah, and if we could get more people to start reading comics, that would help too... =)