Length of comics and the web...

[Guest]

I'm a little curious to know how people here feel about what kinds of comics are best suited for the web, and which ones work best for print. The obvious ones on the web side are comics that use any form of interactivity or technology that would be hard or impossible to print, such as an infinite canvas or use of sound effects or small animations.

But what about length? I for one am no great fan of reading long comics (50 to 60+ pages) of a computer screen. I prefer to have them as a book I can take with me to bed. It's both a comfort thing, as well as the way you get used to surfing the web...jumping from one thing to the other with the attentionspan of a pigeon.

Is it possible that the future of comics might be in that more and more short format comics, experimental (technical, style or subject) and series format (dayly/weekly/monthly) choose to publish on the web? While longer comics get published on paper, along with short story anthologies and compilations of series?

Ragnar

[Jack Masters]

I don't mind reading long things on the web OR in print. Unless the book weighs a lot like the dictionary or something, then I prefer the web. If reading long things on the web bothers you, you can print them out.

Print and web comics have different feels to them, which seems to me the biggest difference. Things in print feel more self-contained, more stable, more tangible; good for things like Acme Novelty Library, and bad for things like <a href="http://www.fluble.com/cgi-bin/fluble/va ... Fluble.</a>

[thrdgll]

Many of the problems, both in format and download time, in reading web comics will be taken care of in the wake of improved technology. This will make longer comics more bearable for most readers. But I, for one, still won't find reading comics from a screen any more enjoyable, no matter the quality.

One of my big beefs with Scott McCloud's (and other's) hyper-excitement over the web is his tendency to dismiss any love of books as nostalgia for an outdated technology. When I read comics online, I usually end up thinking, "How nice. I wish it were in a book".

I've made better friends (as an artist) with computer technology, but I still maintain my old, alledgedly technophobic stance: books "exist", web pages do not. The sheer physicality, the object-ness of books holds more power for the reader than mere sentiment over an "antique". The computer screen, whether in laptop, television, or any other form, will never threaten the intimacies of reading a book.

That being my firm, snotty, "nostalgic" take on things, it is my hope that all good web comics of any length eventually make their way to print, where they can lie in musty old bookshops waiting to become someone's new best friend.

(Sorry if I've steered your topic in a new, potentailly unfriendly direction, Ragnar. My opinionated nature gets the better of me!)

Ashley

[Jack Masters]

Well, I heartily disagree with all that.

[Tailsteak]

I think that web comics and print comics are like two circles that intersect each other. Some comics work well in either format, some are better in print, and some are better on the web.

Definitely, it's easier to get on the web than to get into print. For someone just starting out (like most Keenspacers), it's a great way to learn what cartooning is actually all about. (i.e. long hours of thankless labour that separate the boys from the men). Problem is, this can lend a general air of amateurism to webcomics as a whole.

I think that anyone who has a ridiculous amount of professional cartoonery on the web should also have something in print for people who are patient and have bad eyes. It's just polite.

[Greg Stephens]

One of my big beefs with Scott McCloud's (and other's) hyper-excitement over the web is his tendency to dismiss any love of books as nostalgia for an outdated technology.

Speaking as someone who's purchased every "Bruno" book available, I don't think that the point is a dismissal of love of books as nostalgia, but rather a call to recognize that some of the things that people love about comics aren't tied to comics specifically, but rather tied to books in general. It's about showing that there's nothing fundamental to comics that requries them existing on paper.

I've made better friends (as an artist) with computer technology, but I still maintain my old, alledgedly technophobic stance: books "exist", web pages do not.

Is a physical form a requirement for existance? What about consiousness? What about abstracts such as love and hate? What about nations (as opposed to the land which they occupy)? Do these things exist even though you can't pick them up and touch them? I'd say that web pages exist- especially given the many hours I've spent to create a few.

[Jack Masters]

And why do you consider this sort of "existence" a good thing? It's not like the "non-existence" of webpages makes it harder to read them or anything. If they DID have physical form, it seems to me that problems would spring up all over everywhere.

[Jack Masters]

This sort of reminds me of some other things that people hate and despise because they don't "exist". Micropayments! DARN those non-existant little thingies! I think we need to put them in an IRON-CLAD LOCKBOX!!!

[thrdgll]

The web: "file not found"

Books: "Oh, here it is! Propping up the coffee table!"

I'm thinking primarily of Scott's comments during a lecture at the Savannah College of Art and Design around the time Understanding Comics was released. Granted, his enthusiasm for new technological possibilities for comics is infectious, but he always seems a little TOO eager to leave the old technology behind for my taste. (I don't care what anyone says, Beta rules!!)

Nothing personal against McCloud, of course, whom I greatly admire and respect (I've based my life on three card Nancy!).

I think there's great possibility for the web - assuming it always remains as free as it is today. But the web community still seems very isolated and I'm not sure enough consideration is given to those who are unfamiliar/uncomfortable with the internet. For people like me, the idea of cyberspace will always seem to be an illusion, frequent as the possibilities are of dismantled sites, lost files, etc. But the book, barring its complete destruction due to flood, fire or angry spouse, will always be there. Unless you loaned it to Aunt Martha.

I know a lot of the anti-book sentiments are reactions againt the "collector" mentality that comics are objects to be stored in plastic. A good enough reason to embrace new formats, I suppose.

But come on, everyone knows the best thing about computers is their ability to construct books! Pages and pages of beautiful art and text, folded, stapled, pasted, bound in hardcover, getting ink on your hands, turning yellow! Who can deny the pleasure of a solid, hardbound volume of Zot?

Hey, maybe it is just a fetish, but it has infected millions and its not going away. I implore all of you who publish comics on the web to make an effort at book collections of your work for those of us who can't live without
paper cuts.

Ashley

PS, Jack Masters - What sort of problems?

[Jack Masters]

Well, you'd have to make some sort of pnumatic tube system to carry them to people's homes. And mass produce them at the servers. And to make them say, resizable would take quite a lot of doing. If they exist as massive objects, it'll take forever to get them anywhere. You'd have to make them out of something, and someone would have to cover the cost of producing them.

On the other hand, you could send them through the net as electrical data and turn them into physical objects at the other end. This is called printing.

[catgarza]

we just have to wait another ten years for all those kids that grew up reading comics on the web to become more of a market force, then we'll definitely see a totally new comics industry emerge.

and yes, these pages "exist" as much as anything else in life does. it's there, up, all the time, day in/day out, on a server. full color broadcast 24/7, 365 days a year. that's a fucking amazing acheivement. and it's just as transitory as paper. just as susceptable to rust and age and power outtages and fire. nothing in this world lasts forever.

imho

[thrdgll]

Well, you'd have to make some sort of pnumatic tube system to carry them to people's homes.

Ashley: Ah, I misread your original statement. I thought you were talking about the problems associated with web comics being published in book form.

On the other hand, you could send them through the net as electrical data and turn them into physical objects at the other end. This is called printing.

Right. And then you bind them and put a cover on it. This is called a book: the ultimate achievement of the internet!

Seriously, I'm curious about our differences, seeing as you guys seem more interested in web publishing than myself (and I'm guessing most of you are younger than me, that makes a big difference, too). Are you folks still interested in publishing in book form at all or is that too mundane a goal?

Ashley

[catgarza]

not sure. i've done it in the past and i'm not totally against it. if i do print again, the printing and the story need to go hand in hand. i'm concerned with "book as art object" aspect of printing comics. the highwater, drawn&quarterly, fantagraphics books as examples.

it would probably have to be a children's book.

but for now, my loyalties are to the digital kingdom, whose boundaries grow more vast each day.

[Greg Stephens]

Are you folks still interested in publishing in book form at all or is that too mundane a goal?

Oh, I'd love to publish a book. I've looked into various means of self-publishing and I would like to do something in that vein in the next year or so.

Again, this is not a debate of "web good; print bad" but a matter of seeking legitimacy for digital comics. As webcomic creators (and I'm going to speak as a "we" here, though I realize that I may not be speaking for everyone), the things that attracts us to the web are the immediacy, the low cost and the range of audience- I'm realizing that in explaining further, I'm simply reiterating the second half of "Reinventing Comics," so I'm going to cut this short and simply reiterate myself- "Web Good; Books Good Too."

[InkAddict]

This is my first post, so i hope i won't rehash too many of the ideas other people already explained, but...

as to the web/print dilemma, it's rather a discussion about "object" (i.e. "book", you can read on the toilet, in your bed, etc...), and "info" (i.e. web page, program, or just plain text "floating around in webspace"), you have to view in front of a computer!

On the other hand, you could send them through the net as electrical data and turn them into physical objects at the other end. This is called printing.

There was actually a discussion like this when some writers started writing books exclusively on the web. The writers (who don't use "fast" computers but often outdated ones), saw the collapse of the industry (not getting the attention they need so badly to get readers because they didn't know how to make publicity online ), or saw the coming of a new era where everybody downloads their books, then goes to a local printer to get it printed in the typeface they like most and the size they wanted to read from.

In the quote (above) Jack Masters says that the way to turn web comics or digitized comics into physical objects is called printing, but there *IS* an alternative *EVERYBODY FORGETS*!!!

It's called "E-book", an invention that was first created to become an easy way of reading a long text (for example a book) on a device that resembled a real book.

The screen had to be only black&white, and it was necessary to have two small High Resolution screens as if the thing was an open book. You can read it on the toilet and in bed (but i shouldn't recommend it in bath though), and it works on a battery, much like a cellular phone does.

I'm sure some of you have heard about it. I don't know how much it costs (probably it's still considered a gadget so prices are probably high), but a colour version could be the solution to any reluctance booklovers could have. LCD screens are getting cheaper and cheaper too, and i read something about low-cost "paintable" screens (a layer of paint thick!). Only, instead of buying the hardware (paper, staples, ink) over and over again and paying for their delivery, you could well buy a comic book with only blank pages, you could then plug into any computer to "load" the images and text!!!

If Scott McCloud is right when he talks about prices in "cents" instead of "dollars" for any quality comic, this may well be the solution to win over not only the comic book market, but also the book and press market (imagine: you walk into the press shop to plug your standard magazine into the computer of the vendor and download the latest Rolling Stone, Playboy and Wizzard issues!!!)

Then, at home you can still make a back-up on your computer for further reading later!

Also, the shops don't have to be 100% online : there can still be book, press and comic shops, only they can be all three in one, and still have room! They could also offer other things to enhance the reader experience: internet acces, coffe shop, info on what's hot, and what's not (remember: the critic is going to get really important in the future!)

well i hope some of you can see my point of view

I just hope these new technologies aren't actively boycotted/kept small, by the few corporations that are leading the market right now

[thrdgll]

"i'm concerned with "book as art object" aspect of printing comics."

Me too! And if anyone should explore this area further, it's you! I'd imagine your books would be quite beautiful!

As for e-books, is there really enough advantage over toting an ordinary book around? (I mean from a reader's and not an industry perspective) It's got advantages over reading from a monitor, but seems to me it's just another potentially trendy digital toy to keep in tow.

Plus most magazines have to take advatage of their annoying, physical, printed pressence to attract attention. If you're waiting at the barber shop and can download whatever magazine you want are you really gonna choose People or Rolling Stone? These publications wouldn't have a fighting chance against real consumer choice. They survive because they're THERE, a constant material reminder of their existence.

Ashley

[chrisSturhann]

There are a handful of points I'd like to respond to.

First Yingo. I agree it only a matter of time before some form of digital reader makes it possible to easily read, carry, and view digital content anywhere. Back in the eighties, one of my biggest problems with Star Trek TNG was that they would show people sitting in their quarters reading from a computer screen. I mean they have a halodeck, but they have to sit at a terminal to read. Eventually, there will be an affordable reader about the size of a magazine or paperback book that won't hurt your eyes and will allow you to take digital reading material on the bus, to bed, etc.

I wonder how much of thrdgll's enthusiasm for print is based on its convenience and portability. If the next Zot graphic novel could be loaded into an affordable digital reader for about the same price as a print one and still have all of the convienience of a printed graphic novel, plus things like animation or sound that you could never get in a print product, would that diminish the appeal of the hard-bound book.

I seriously doubt that we'll ever see a Rolling Stone for cents instead of dollars. I'm sure that if you look at the cost of producing a magazine like Rolling Stone, only a small percentage of that cost would be printing and distributing the physical product. The bulk of the cost would be paying people to produce that physical product. But if I was to try to put together a color magazine along the lines of Rolling Stone, I'd be overwhelmed by the costs because I can't afford to print 200,000 copies in order to bring the price down, although this may be changing with the advent of publish on demand technology.

Plus, just because the cost of making a product goes down, that doesn't mean that the retail price of said product will go down. How much has the cost of of producing music CDs dropped since they were first introduced. Has the price of CDs gone down? No. But one advantage of the drop in costs is that a local surf music band can make a CD that looks and sounds just as good as a major label CD, and sell them at their shows for ten bucks, helping them promote themselves and bring in a bit of cash that might not otherwise be available.

I think that the main advantage of newer/cheaper technologies is that they allow people who are not affiliated with an established entertainment industry to compete on a more equal footing with those who are.

If you look at the traditional comics industry, the system makes it next to impossible for a newcomer to compete on an equal footing with established products. You could easily spend thousands of dollars and be doing extremely well to only reach a few hundred readers. With web publishing, you could easily reach a few hundred readers for a fraction of the cost and build from there.

P.S. Ashley, I wrote the above before reading your last post. At this point, I don't think that e-readers do offer a whole lot more than a traditional book. But if the e-reader could incorporate what you might normally need to carry, address book, cell phone, day planner, etc., and still be able to read an interactive comic book or browse a magazine that would be able to directly access an advertiser's web site etc., that might make a difference. The main problem is that there isn't yet one affordable product that can do all of that, but in ten years, who knows.

For a technology like this to take hold, it needs to be better, faster, and/or cheaper than the existing ones. We're not there yet, but I'm sure one day we will be.

[thrdgll]

I wonder how much of thrdgll's enthusiasm for print is based on its convenience and portability. If the next Zot graphic novel could be loaded into an affordable digital reader for about the same price as a print one and still have all of the convienience of a printed graphic novel, plus things like animation or sound that you could never get in a print product, would that diminish the appeal of the hard-bound book.

You can definately keep the animation and sound. I'd like to see a little less blinking and twitching online as it is.

For me, books are an aesthetic choice. Particularly for comics and other visual art, the varieties of possiblities in printing techniques and book design is far more satisfying than the invariably neon glow of the computer monitor. Convenience is definately a factor in online creation and distribution of comics, but I still prefer the look and feel of print. And I'm assuming I'm still in the population's majority on that one, seeing as book sales are still very healthy (even without Oprah!).

So no, portability wouldn't make much difference. I just really like books!

Ashley

[InkAddict]

Ashley wrote:

So no, portability wouldn't make much difference. I just really like books!

...well, i can't counter that one, because for a big part i'm into it too!

Only i believe that the printed media will coexist with the digital one, a little like people writing letters to others by hand, even in this e-mail-based century (i for instance mail to my girlfriend, but regularly write her a "real" letter, because it's that much more "real")

Books will probably become more expensive though (even if the amount of paper & ink available, will make paper & ink prices drop).

Only... as with quality comics... something rare doesn't have to be "less" than the "mainstream" average

[chrisSturhann]

Ashley,

Generally speaking, I could do with a bit less twitching and animation online myself, but I have seen animation used very effectively in some online comics.

I can appreciate your preference for printed comics and books in general, and in some respects, I share them. My problem with comic books is that the type that I would be most interested in reading are not the type that you would normally find in stores, comic-book stores or normal bookstores. But if cartoonists can reach me easier and cheaper by doing online comics, all the more power to them. And if on top of all of that they can use the digital environment in a way that enhances the experience beyond what can be done in print, that can be a great thing.

[Guest]

But if cartoonists can reach me easier and cheaper by doing online comics, all the more power to them. And if on top of all of that they can use the digital environment in a way that enhances the experience beyond what can be done in print, that can be a great thing.

Agreed. The business side of print comics is too bleak for most cartoonists to consider. I began my "career" in comics in the Ninja Turtle 80's when any yokel with a black and white book could at least break even. Not anymore.

But as a reader, whenever I see good work on the web I can't help the desire to own a quality print edition. And I'm not alone there. I guess I just grew up in an age when being "in print" was a cartoonist's primary goal and bookmaking (I sometimes assemble my own hardcover editions of my work - not very difficult and enormously satisfying) has always been a passion. For me, the final act of "cartooning" is putting two staples in the spine (the book's, not mine). So it's a little hard for someone like me to imagine cartooning on the web only.

Ashley

PS- Ha! Check out Yingo's comments! He sends his girlfriend a "real" letter because it's more "real"! Another vote for the intangibility of internet communication? How "real" are we right now? (Put on your Pink Floyd records before pondering that.)

[InkAddict]

chrisSturhann wrote:

Generally speaking, I could do with a bit less twitching and animation online myself, but I have seen animation used very effectively in some online comics.

I agree with that one: some comics online (mostly amateurs even if some are really well done) overdo it in a way that is *really* close to the bad art vortex.

Watching the still image of a car with a rather classic "scccrrreeeeeeeeeee" of the brakes, will trigger an imaginary "screeching" sound in the heads of most readers. If the comic makes a screeching noise itself, you may...

• a. find that your screeching sound was realer, and get annoyed by a program that considers you an illiterate.
  b. startle at the sound, jump up, or worse turn around (often the comic makes only a few sounds, so they often come as a complete surprise and i had the experience by thinking something had happened in my house!), which ruins the reading experience.
  c. get annoyed by the fact that you weren't looking at the car yet, but now are forced in that way by something so invading like a sound
  d. ...

These happens even more often with voice-overs, especially of well-known comics.

Sometimes i feel we should start concentrating on the visual aspect of comics, without focusing too much on the animated possibilities, and give the art of computer-comics the time to adapt itself to what we really need.

That is also the trouble i have with so-called "interactive" comics. They are often no more than a story with three endings. What use is it to read a complete comic, only to try three choices at the end?

Really interactive comics should bifurcate early on in the story and keep separated story threads! This way rereading a comic will really have a point, and won't be the quick "let's-flip-back-a-few-pages" we know now. Most interactive comics are told with an interactive story in mind. They should get back to basics and just tell a story, using interactivity only when it adds value, see?

[chrisSturhann]

My biggest problem with print comics is not with the concept of print. I love a good funny book. There's something very cool about it. My problem is with the way they are packaged and sold. There's this whole hunter-gatherer collector mentality that drives the industry. I don't have the time or patience to go to comic book stores every week anymore, especially when you consider that the material I like the best is the type of stuff that comes out irregularly and is not ordered in any reasonable quanities if at all. I tend to pick up all of my print comics once a year at the San Diego Con. That way I can buy trade paperbacks or entire runs all at once.

While I can see how you would want to see print editions of online comics, I would argue that the online comics that work the best usually contain things that would be very hard if not impossible to emulate in print. Look at McCloud's Zot, Hearts and Minds series. In one of the installments, there is a panel that would be over 6 feet tall if printed. True it could be broken up for a print edition, but it wouldn't serve the story as well as that one insanely tall panel that you just keep scrolling through forever and ever.

Admittedly, all too often, web comics will use the various available bells and whistles, more because they can than because they should. If it works and serves the story, great. If not, it has no place being there. Sure you have a lot of amatuers who do not understand how to skillfully manipulate the medium, but that shouldn't limit the work of the judicious few who do it well. It's sort of like jagged panel borders. In the hands of an amatuer who is only doing it because it looks cool or because his favorite artist does it sometimes, it can do nothing to serve the story, but to the skilled cartoonist, it can enhance the story in a way that normal panel border could not.

I don't know if I buy the letters being more real than e-mail thing. If you look at it in a way that e-mail because of its immediacy and informality is done in a way more like a conversation, e-mail might be considered more real, because it more closely resembles normal human speech, not the stilted formality of a letter. Put that in your Pink Floyd records and smoke it. Maybe not, vinyl tends to burn the throat.

[gazorenzoku]

Web comics and print comics are both good. I want to make and read both. They both have their own strengths and weaknesses.

Personally, my favorite thing about making web comics is color. I can't afford color in the comics I want to print. But I also love the look and feel of a physical comic book.

I also enjoy the "infinite canvas" concept. I have toyed with the concept of trying to make a physical comic book in a scroll format, but have not been satisfied with my options so far.... maybe one day it will happen...

vince