Advice for New Writers here

[Eagle-NO-Earth]

I had another piece of advice. new writers need to think of things that havent been done before. The author of the JACK REACHER series said that when he was coming up with his hero for his series he thought of what other types of heroes existed at the time and what was popular and he came up with a rule: IF YOU SEE A BANDWAGON, YOU ARE TOO LATE TO GET ON IT. Meaning, if you are planning on writing another zombie apocalypse story because TWD is doing so well, its too late, dont bother, do something that no one else is doing right now. or at the very east, write the fucking zombie story from the zombies perspective, no ones done that before...Izombie doesnt count cause shes not a full on zombie and eats brains to hold off on going "full zombie".

To put it another way, if you can't be first, be best. If you can't be best, be first.

Eagle
(Trying both)

[ld-airgrafix]

I had another piece of advice. new writers need to think of things that havent been done before. The author of the JACK REACHER series said that when he was coming up with his hero for his series he thought of what other types of heroes existed at the time and what was popular and he came up with a rule: IF YOU SEE A BANDWAGON, YOU ARE TOO LATE TO GET ON IT. Meaning, if you are planning on writing another zombie apocalypse story because TWD is doing so well, its too late, dont bother, do something that no one else is doing right now. or at the very east, write the fucking zombie story from the zombies perspective, no ones done that before...Izombie doesnt count cause shes not a full on zombie and eats brains to hold off on going "full zombie".

If marvel and dc followed this rule, 90% of superheros wouldnt exist.
Yes zombies are being overdone, but none except TWD are any good. And even the twd comics werent that popular until the show. People flocked to z nation thinking its going to be awesome, and it didnt fail because it was just another zombie show, poor writing and acting was the downfall.
well written and drawn books will succeed regardless of the genre.

[emocort]

Marvel and dc cant follow the bandwagon because they are the bandwagon.

[ld-airgrafix]

Marvel and dc cant follow the bandwagon because they are the bandwagon.

They werent always. 😀

[emocort]

doesnt matter any way, the people of zwol arent marvel or anywhere near being them, we have to go the alternate route or go pro and work for the big guys to make our dreams happen.

side note: a dream with out a plan will never get you to your goal.

[Eagle-NO-Earth]

doesnt matter any way, the people of zwol arent marvel or anywhere near being them, we have to go the alternate route or go pro and work for the big guys to make our dreams happen.

side note: a dream with out a plan will never get you to your goal.

And this is something I have been trying to say. If there are more than 20 actual comic pros lurking in this forum, I would be surprised. I know of three. The rest of us are amateurs (some very talented and/or skilled) who may have what it takes to be pros, but are not. What's the line? If you are not making a living doing it, it is not your profession. You might have a 'professional' attitude, work ethic, output, or whatever, but until you're making a living, you are an amateur.
And what you just said there, Emocort, is the cold, hard, reality. Either make your dreams of being an indie come true, or make your dreams of working on your favourite characters come true, but have a plan to get there.

Eagle
(Where's your comic, sir?)

[Ruyei]

By the way, there was a very good movie done from the Zombie's perspective, Warm Bodies, a couple years ago I believe. It was no classic and played off more of a kindergartner's view of zombies (BRAAAAAIIIINS) but it was simple, fun, cute and knew what it was doing. Definitely the benchmark in my opinion to anyone seeking to do it from the zombie's perspective. I would also recommend I am Legend, and I mean the BOOK not any of the movie adaptions which don't do the concept the same way. The book indirectly or directly (depending on who you ask) spawned zombies themselves as being an influence on Night of the Living dead, and the main purpose of I am Legend is to provide a believable hypothesis (considering the times anyway) of vampires being possible from an infectious disease standpoint. The story ends when some of these vampires/zombies (They're more akin to our understanding of zombies than vampires actually) becoming sentient and our protagonist, who has unknowably been killing living sentient beings that he thought were feral evil beings, becomes the new "legend" of a vicious, almost supernatural creature (Since the survinvg humans have become nocturnal and the protagonist was hunting them while they were sleeping, thus scary shit to them). Although the vampire/zombie perspective isn't the point of the film, we learn a lot of information about them and their perspective. True, I've only read the comic book adaption of the book, but it taught me a lot about how to do a good zombie story.

[emocort]

how many writers here have gone to writing classes or workshops in person or online? most artists worth talking about have had some kind of formal training, so why not writers?

[Eagle-NO-Earth]

how many writers here have gone to writing classes or workshops in person or online? most artists worth talking about have had some kind of formal training, so why not writers?

That would be me. My personal feeling was that if I was going to do this, I would study it, learn it, and practice it. My work desk has another person's script laid out on it right now that I am notecarding so that I can re-write it in the morning. I have 49,000 words of script for my NO-Earth site. I have two pitches that I am working on, and if I get time, I need to do one for ONI.
I have a fairly complete comic writing reference library, and good runs of Sketch, Write, Draw, and Comic Artist, all of which have good articles on writing comics. I've been to 3 convention comic writer's workshops, belong to a SF/Fantasy writer's group, and am a published fiction auther (magazine short stories, and a short story in a paperback anthology with a nice rating on Goodreads). I've also got two creative writing courses under my belt, and follow every comic writing thread I can find on any forum. I spend as much time practicing the craft of writing as I do the craft of art.
And anyone who tells me that the writing is easier isn't doing the writing correctly. I do both, and the art is relaxing to me. The writing is is like surgery. hehehe...and I've never had to get out of bed in the middle of the night because the drawing board wouldn't let me sleep. The keyboard calls my name constantly. On the plus side, I can do the hard work of writing when I am painting. I can't do crap about painting when I am writing.

Eagle
(It's a craft. Those must be learned and practiced)

[emocort]

thats good to know that at least 1 person here posting has done some kind of training. its also sad that out of several thousand views of this thread that only 1 person has had training, sure some lurkers may have had training but they dont count.

[Bocasean]

We count. We've just been here longer and have already cracked our heads against this brick wall years ago

Training and practice are the biggest keys to success. Second to that, it's a willingness to invest in one's business. Third, it's learning the ability to sell that dream to others.

[emocort]

finally, trained writer #2. I think the final point you made is probably the most important " the ability to sell that dream to others". if you cant do that, you got nothin.

What does trained writer #3 have to say? I am calling you out.

[Ruyei]

I'm not done my training yet but am going to school for writing "it's called writing arts here" and have been scripting for 8 years and writing stories for 12. I have three short stories published in small mags (Not very glamorous but still hard to do) and like Eagle I'm always practicing and trying new things.

I personally feel for writing that it isn't about special training as much as practice and networking. Having a local writer's group or writing classes taken is more feasible than going to college for a field that is very not in demand. Even I'm taking education as a dual major just in case writing doesn't pan out.

-Ruyei

[strega guy]

1. Begin their story on an EPIC note. Please, no 'from the beginning of all time' or 'vast worlds and entire populations.' It's exhausting to wade through for the reader.

2. The 'shadowy' figure, anyone in silhouette, major players left out of the first issue ('cause there'll be this BIG REVEAL!!). No one's going to track you down to get filled in with the 'missing' pieces. Put them all in there for God's sake.

3. The Prophecy, The Chosen One, The plucky adventurous capable ninja GIRL assassin/babe/warrior/princess/undercover agent. There's three billion comics with a STRONG FEMALE PROTAGONIST. If you want to dissolve into the gray haze of mediocrity, by all means include this type of character. Otherwise just make him a man, and not a man with tits.

4. Forgetting your story on the way. A tough kid is a tough kid. A shy girl, skeptical detective, smothering mother, is what it is until it isn't. Stick to it.

5. Ignore writing and story structure entirely. That's your job. Who what where should never be left unanswered. Even then it'd be great to include How and Why.

6. Addendum to 5. Writing boring crap and once in a while opening up the can of AWESOME SAUCE and slathering it all over your script. 'Joe and Frank walk walk and walk and walk down the road and THEN SUDDENLY A HUGE DRAGON gets in their way.' That's kindergarten writing. You're bigger than that.

7. Use the word 'totally.' It's not the '80s, you're not a Valley Girl. If your character is supposed to feel or express an extreme emotion or reaction your story should've brought them to that point. If you have to add that attribute to a character's state then you need to re-tool the story.

8. (this one's a capital sin) Using 'The News' or 'The Police' or 'Special Ops' as a cheap way to demonstrate the 'importance' of what's going on. Again, no one cares if you have some anonymous person staring at you and reading off a piece of paper the events in your story. Just as bad having a Cop stop what they're doing to react to what your character's doing or saying (unless it's truly against the law and the cop is doing his/her duty.)

9. Too much of main character. If your character appears in more than 60% of the panels it shows something. You're in love. The reader isn't/can't share that love with you! They want story, write one!

10. Lastly, writing for an audience of one (themselves). A reader can sense if you're introducing a main character that's merely an idealized version of yourself. If you want to feed your ego, keep a journal and leave the rest of us alone.

11. Oh, and enough of the POST APOCALYPTICAL settings. That's lazy. It takes time and research to write a scene in say, Brooklyn NY present day on a weekday morning, versus writing about a dude standing in front of a BOMBED OUT WRECKAGE. Avoid the first temptation to 'wipe out' all civilization so that no one can call you out on getting a fact or detail wrong.

[Ruyei]

Strega Guy...

Some of what you said made sense, but just because you see writers hinging on tropes and doing it poorly doesn't mean that these tropes are impossible to pull off! I'll go through your advice point by point. The key is with many of your tropes to go about them in a "modern" or different way than has been established.

1. Don't begin a story on an epic note? Are you asking the writer to simply say or convey "This happened in an ordinary place and the story itself is inconsequential"? I think what you're really looking to "outlaw" is the trope of introducing the story in a first page by saying "This is a record of extraordinary events" or "In a far off and fanciful land of myth and magic, a great man met a great wizard on the field of combat". I get that it's a somewhat outdated form of introduction that readers are very familiar with, but I think this form of introduction can serve the reader very well. I think where people go wrong is to keep things vague, like "Here is the tale of the warrior of songs, Hiroshi, and a ballad of his doings." However, if one would give a synopsis of the plot or lead a reader into perhaps by saying "In 1939 New York in a country on the brink of war, one man takes it upon himself to weed out a conspiracy that has been lost in history. For it wasn't Japanese immigrants that served as spies, but everymen, buisness lords with a disdain for their country and hope in a far off land where one lives by his sword and dies by it." Maybe my example isn't perfect, but as I am proposing detail that sets your introduction apart and explains where you're going with the story can be crucial if one has a slow beginning or a complex plot.

2. The "shadowy figure" trope has been done very well. However, I think it works best when rather than have the shadowy figure be a complete mystery man, to give the character some dialogue and either introduce him or her prior and have him or her do secret actions that are revealed later on or simply mention the character in passing "maybe the protagonist has a cousin he's fond of and haven't seen in a while" and then structure the plot so that the need for the character's concealment benefits the reader rather than confuse. But yeah, shadowy figures work best when we actually see them do and say stuff in the shadows, making the person a character in his or her own right. You also have to have a foundation for their reveal, as in some sort of mention of the character before-hand. Also note that a shadowy figure can also be a disguised figure and the same rules apply. Darth Vader is a great example of the shadowy figure and his reveal done well.

3. This comes in two part since two topes are addressed, which I shall split off int A and B

A. Now this I agree with. Prophecies and destinies with a character fated to save the world often come across as lazy and trite ways to build respect for a character before he or she has earned it. However! It can be very interesting when, rather than the prophecy simplifying the scenario, it instead complicates it. Maybe the hero is prophesized to die and spends a good part of his journey running away and hiding under tables. Maybe the character is given a "chosen one" motif and doesn't fit the typical role (Perhaps being an arrogant unrepentant rogue who is more interested with counting how many chicks he bangs). The chosen one motif in our modern times needs something to set it apart from basic plots to be done right, although truthfully there are cases where going the generic way actually simplifies things since we're so familiar with the motif and recognize it as a genre story. Honestly trite and done to death concepts can always be done well, the key is to do INCREDIBLY well with fundamentals such as character, story, and ect.

B. I LOVE strong female characters, though that may be a matter of taste. However as I have matured as a writer I have realized that making one's characters recognizably female in certain ways (Perhaps a liking of cute things or a sense of modesty) that indeed give the character a reason for being female. However I love females who take on male character traits such as aggressiveness or as a rescuer of "damsels". Creating a character that breaks conventions can be very interesting and I love writing males as passive, shy, and emotional and women as logical, in charge, and as person's of action. I'm frankly bored of the Lois Lanes of the comic industry and support female characters who do a lot more than being objects of affection or reliant on mn.
4. Now forgetting the story I cannot forgive. Indeed it's very common in amateur comics to suddenly take things in another direction. The key, make a bible containing all world information, character bios, everything important to your story that you want to convey. And of course consulting it before writing each item helps a lot.

5. Leaving things unanswered is something even the pros do. Same as number four, plan everything and refer back to your notes.

6 through 10- These following points are indeed issues, but in the end having people read your work and providing input can be very key. Either get a friend to look stuff over or form a relationship with a writer to look over each other's work.

11. Really, no post-apoc? It's a great genre and although I've only read the Walking Dead as an example in the genre several movies have come out over the years that do the setting very well. I do agree that one has make the setting more than tacked on and use the setting's strengths, that of encouraging despearation in the characters and an ominous feel of death, dying, and immorality. To make things interesting though you may want to use other settings that provide the same advantages, such as dealing with lawless areas like the wild west or even low populated areas like in the American midwest or in New Jersey's famous Pine Barrenss reason (which is infamous for its hicks!).

I hate lists that state that certain story plots and techniques are bogus, there are always people who will prove you wrong or become exceptions to your rule. Now if you yourself are tired of seeing certain plot elements, that's a different story entirely.

Sincerely,
Ruyei

P.S. I'm currently a scripter looking for a project. I am charging, but note that I am professional in my dealings and that through "buying" my services you are creating time in which I don't have to find money elsewhere. So you are creating an environment by which I can find more time to work on comics. I specialize in fantasy and sci-fi but am more than capable to do superhero, real world, and even artsy pieces. Check out my post here at http://www.zwol.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8049

[Eagle-NO-Earth]

1. Begin their story on an EPIC note. Please, no 'from the beginning of all time' or 'vast worlds and entire populations.' It's exhausting to wade through for the reader.

Agree. Some of the best writing advice I have ever seen was "tell small stories against a huge backdrop". Look at Lord of the Rings. The story is not what you think it is.

2. The 'shadowy' figure, anyone in silhouette, major players left out of the first issue ('cause there'll be this BIG REVEAL!!). No one's going to track you down to get filled in with the 'missing' pieces. Put them all in there for God's sake.

Disagree. I have seen this done poorly, and seen it done very well. It depends on the writer and the story.

3. The Prophecy, The Chosen One, The plucky adventurous capable ninja GIRL assassin/babe/warrior/princess/undercover agent. There's three billion comics with a STRONG FEMALE PROTAGONIST. If you want to dissolve into the gray haze of mediocrity, by all means include this type of character. Otherwise just make him a man, and not a man with tits.

It's possible you need an editor for your posts, since I doubt that you intended this to come across this misogynist and sexist. The sex of a protagonist matters not one whit.

4. Forgetting your story on the way. A tough kid is a tough kid. A shy girl, skeptical detective, smothering mother, is what it is until it isn't. Stick to it.

Agree, if a character's personality is altered, it should be a plot point.

5. Ignore writing and story structure entirely. That's your job. Who what where should never be left unanswered. Even then it'd be great to include How and Why.

I agree, but not with leaving How and Why out. The 5 elements of fiction:
Who - Character
What - Conflict
How - Plot
Where - Setting
Why - Theme
If any of those are missing, the story either suffers, or dies.

6. Addendum to 5. Writing boring crap and once in a while opening up the can of AWESOME SAUCE and slathering it all over your script. 'Joe and Frank walk walk and walk and walk down the road and THEN SUDDENLY A HUGE DRAGON gets in their way.' That's kindergarten writing. You're bigger than that.

Nah, this is a separate point. Purple Prose, Tom Swifties, Exclamatory text, all of it needs to be edited out of what you are writing. Once again, learn the craft of writing.

7. Use the word 'totally.' It's not the '80s, you're not a Valley Girl. If your character is supposed to feel or express an extreme emotion or reaction your story should've brought them to that point. If you have to add that attribute to a character's state then you need to re-tool the story.

Totally agree.

8. (this one's a capital sin) Using 'The News' or 'The Police' or 'Special Ops' as a cheap way to demonstrate the 'importance' of what's going on. Again, no one cares if you have some anonymous person staring at you and reading off a piece of paper the events in your story. Just as bad having a Cop stop what they're doing to react to what your character's doing or saying (unless it's truly against the law and the cop is doing his/her duty.)

Um...Disagree. Miller in The Dark Knight Returns uses the news to feed small bits of exposition, and later social commentary. Same with Moore in V For Vendetta. Those are two of the greats. Lots of good writers use the device, but it needs to be used properly.

9. Too much of main character. If your character appears in more than 60% of the panels it shows something. You're in love. The reader isn't/can't share that love with you! They want story, write one!

Another disagreement. I can list more comics that I care to where the main character is the POV, and therefore in every scene, if not every panel.

10. Lastly, writing for an audience of one (themselves). A reader can sense if you're introducing a main character that's merely an idealized version of yourself. If you want to feed your ego, keep a journal and leave the rest of us alone.

This is called a Mary Sue (or Marty Sue for male characters) and is a highly ridiculed trope. However, let me point out that the other side includes characters such as James Bond, Dirk Pitt, Bones (TV and Books), Most Robert Adams characters, and almost all Jack London characters. Done poorly, it's laughable. Done well, and it's memorable.

11. Oh, and enough of the POST APOCALYPTICAL settings. That's lazy. It takes time and research to write a scene in say, Brooklyn NY present day on a weekday morning, versus writing about a dude standing in front of a BOMBED OUT WRECKAGE. Avoid the first temptation to 'wipe out' all civilization so that no one can call you out on getting a fact or detail wrong.

Yeah, that's just a fad. Hold on a year or two, it will change.

Eagle
(Amusing)

[strega guy]

I'll be back with a list of 10 things that comic book writers should do more of, just to balance things out.

[Phani]

Hey Eagle,
what you said is right, and just like Ruyei said. people(writer) has to start somewhere. with out that we cannot improve. when we publish are discuss with others then we get to know the wrongs and rights of it.

But yeah like you said if they do not improve then it is problem.

I had to face difficulties like all of you, my main problem was no one wanted to give me feedback or even tried to just peek(when gave the script to have opinion), all just scolded me or said im doing idotic thing rather than doing some good other than this.

still I tried to improve it by studying some other comics and novels and the tried to grasp the meanings etc etc...
But I want to thank you as well, because you gave very good points and opinions to think about for lot of new writers.
it's great to some of the things i did not know.

Also I want to thank Ruyei, for creating such a good thread. it's great.

[emocort]

Omg, strega is totally(sorry for the 80s ref) right. So many indie writers do all those things. #12 would be long winded dialogue if i had to add to it and #12a would be dialogue that isnt how people talk. I read a dudes vampire hunter script and these guys belonged to some organization and were trying to recruit a new guy and they are like "hello traveller, we want you to join D.S.A.F. whats dsaf you ask? Well...." like fuck off. Who talkes like that?. Also for anyone wanting to know, the "travellers" response was equally lame. And ya, Tooooo many zombies. Too many post-A settings. Havent seen a lot of prehistoric settings, like is turok the only story of its kind? Havent seen anything else like it. Theres a guy posting on the indie comics forum on facebook doing a native american story set in the distant past thats actually pretty decent. Oh one final note. Ethereal. I hate that word. Mainly cause it seems to be in every indie script ive seen.

[Bocasean]

As if on cue, emocort, you segue into my next point. Building a brand is key to success in nearly any business, writing included. This artist created a prehistoric concept called Cain & Abel: Dinosaur Hunters and then hired me to create the plot structure and write the story. He found me because of the work I'd put into building a viable, marketable identity.

Put another way, it's not just having a resume or a portfolio; it's also about understanding how to package it and float it out into the world so it's visible and tempting to the masses.

[MrEvilside]

Hello everyone,

I have a question for my fellow writers. When you get a job provided by someone who wants help writing a script (e.g. an artist that isn't a skilled writer), how do you ensure they meet their end of the agreement (that is, payment)? Do you sign a contract? How does it work exactly?

Thank you for your answers in advance.

[emocort]

Ya a contract is good. Although you will want to keep it simple and to the point. Dont get complicated otherwise you need a lawyer etc. An easy way is to make the person pay you for every 5pages delivered. So you dont lose out on huge chunks of money and if they are hard up for cash its easier on them too. I had to pay a writer that way and i let them know all of that up front.

[MrEvilside]

Ya a contract is good. Although you will want to keep it simple and to the point. Dont get complicated otherwise you need a lawyer etc. An easy way is to make the person pay you for every 5pages delivered. So you dont lose out on huge chunks of money and if they are hard up for cash its easier on them too. I had to pay a writer that way and i let them know all of that up front.

Thank you, this was very helpful!

[Devmillr]

Hi im Devan 18, living in phoenix Arizona. have a very interesting story that I've been working on for years. Im not exactly organized with my actual proof. I have at least 80+ papers of ideas, characters drawings, comics, scripted versions, and splash pages.
My comic is based off a a planet of separation. Rivalry between countries. and disfunction characters effected by the main characters presence. basically when something isn't exactly suppose to happen. Through out my story things don't go exactly planned and my character constantly finds himself alone and not really normal as the others.
I got the idea oddly from my math class. I was bored and just started making a map of a planet. And it led to me making a character questing on an adventure. An adventure to find his father that was a true hero in the world. Once i matured out of my small mind of story concepts, the story grew.
My main concern is my consistency of drawing my story. I have the idea but i can't exactly draw all of it. I have plenty of drawings to show you the whole basic story. What i need is a Manga Artist interested in collaborating with my comic idea. We would share the same ownership depending on if i like your style of drawing lol.
My new story is far very longer than my first idea. But i won't explain it, until i actually get someone interested. I am not familiar with Manga requirements, or the Japanese culture. I usually make up the story as i go adding words i think sound cool. Im still learning. PLEASE MANGA ARTIST PLEASE REPLY IF INTERESTED.