why is $10/pg too much for you writers?

[dbppres]

folks, the problem that i have with prose books, is the lack of descriptive details, which is why i don't read books hardly anymore. to the writers, aas i mentioned to someone else on another thread, go to your local H.S.'s, and colleges, and POST FLIERS, offering $10/pg, and i am very sure that you will acquire some basically decently-skilled artists.

[dbppres]

folks, the problem that i have with prose books, is the lack of descriptive details, which is why i don't read books hardly anymore.

to the writers, as i mentioned to someone else on another thread, go to your local H.S.'s, and colleges, and POST FLIERS, offering $10/pg, and i am very sure that you will acquire some basically decently-skilled artists.

[poisonelvis]

wow,that.....was......painful.....to.......read.......and truth be told,i feel guilty having read it. I should have been working.now i will.

[dbppres]

you don't have to pay for the whole book at once. just 4-6 pg's at a time.

[dbppres]

so, hopefully some prospective writers have taken away a tidbit of being better-prepared, in regards to getting an artist, and having alternative talent resources to use, for their projects.

[Kagaenod]

I as a writer have no money to spend on comics, even 10 bucks a page adds up to hundreds of dollars. Although I am looking for work I have literally no money while I am going to college, yet I am still passionate about comic creation. Saying that I'm not passionate about comics because I don't have the money is a little insulting. I've worked on several projects, all of which save one I didn't pay the artist and the artist understood that (The one exception didn't end well, I lost my job during production). I do understand that it's easier to get dedication through payment, and when I get some money coming in I do intend to someday in the future pay an artist for their time. But for the time being I have no money and for the most part I write for fun, just for the pleasure of seeing my work get put to paper. Because of this I often accept offers to work on other people's projects if it's something I feel I can have fun working on. And some of my own concepts have a mangaish feel to it, which I am not confident is something I could sell as an American. So my point is, that a writer may be passionate even when he has no money. But considering the talented artists one can get with money, when I have it I most certainly will be using it for comic art. I may even consider paying for a project I am not confident will sell just to see it drawn and to have it as a webcomic to show others. But for the writer with no money, which I am sure is often the case, don't look down on them. They also can have passion too.

[Bocasean]

You might have a "passion" for opening a Little Caesar's pizza franchise, but if you don't have the 300 grand, you can't play. That's the way life works.

There are only so many customers to go around and there are only two things that separate published comic writers from the THOUSANDS of wannabe's who dream of stardom: Talent and Money.

Plan on needing money to be offered the opportunity to display your talent.

[Kagaenod]

I personally have worked with quite a few artists without needing to commit money. Do I think it's harder to find committed and quality artists without putting money on the table, certainly, but it's not impossible or a requirement as you make it out to be. The sacrifice I have had to make a few times is that I'd have to work on a project of the artist's choice, not my own. But it's still good practice and I've had the freedom to tell the story the way I wanted to. Of course I do admit, you can only go so far without paying. If you plan on self publishing, you are definitely going to need money because a free artist will only go so far in most cases. But for project pitches to publishers it is plausible, though a bit more difficult, to get an artist to work with you on a first chapter. But I admit one does have to be patient. Something I'd recommend that has helped me is to work on a project you don't see much project in or with an artist with imperfect skill. Even if the project is not good enough for publication, it can still serve as something you can link to online to show future artists your work, I believe that has helped me. Another tactic I use is to offer myself to other artist's projects and to post a few of my project pitches in detail. I know a lot of writers don't like to describe their projects out of fear that someone will steal them, but it's a chance that has much reward and increases the opportunity that an artist will read your work.

So yes, I agree that money makes things a heck of a lot more easier, but it is possible to get an artist willing to work for free. And I've met other writers who have also met up with artists without paying anything, so it is definitely possible. But my advice still is if you can pay the money, do so. It doesn't guarantee that you'll get a dedicated and talented artist, but it does increase the odds. Although I do feel that in a perfect world, a writer shouldn't have to pay to get a partnership, but sadly there are far more writers than there are artists looking for partnerships. But I also say that if you're looking for some practice or do not have a goal to publish right away, that free artists may be a better idea if you're not willing to make the commitment just yet. You of course may get less dedicated or less quality artists, but you will learn from the experience and that's what counts. Like the art of prose, which I also work in, the best way to get better at scripting is to script and work with artists. Another tip too, is to submit inquiries in multiple forums, let google be your guide and search for "Writer looking for Artist" or vice versa. Definitely don't give up just because you don't have the money, but do prepare for working with artists who are less professional or not as talented or beginners. Anyway, that's my say.

[dbppres]

Kagaenod, if you buy snacks/sodas at ANY given time, then yes, you DO have money to pay an artist, plain and simple.

anyway, as i made sure to inform people before, you don't need to pay for a whole book, in a couple of balloon-sized sums, just enough for pages, on a sporadic basis will get the job done faster, than not paying someone.

[Kagaenod]

So you're saying I should use what little money I do use towards my own enjoyment towards a comic artist? I find that unrealistic, unless you're a person who gets enough enjoyment from comic work to satisfy all of his or her needs. I don't spend much towards myself, but what I do I cherish. I know what you mean is that you feel I could easily scrounge up 10 dollars to pay an artist, but I find that unrealistic. Most paid artists go for 50 to 60 dollars on average, although when I looked I was able to talk down a foreign artist to 20 or 30 dollars a page, I don't remember the exact amount. In short could I probably cease all pleasures of the flesh to pay for a comic artist, yes, but would it make me unhappy, certainly. I think that's a very selfish demand. Especially since writers put a lot of work into their projects too...why should they not be paid? It's because they are passionate about their projects that they do this and it is only because of supply and demand that they have to pay for a larger selection of artists. But at the same time, I don't blame the artists for charging for a project they aren't excited about. I just wish writers could charge as well to work on projects other then their own, but sadly it is not a perfect world. Many writers not only are low on spending money, but since they don't have a guarantee that their work will be accepted by publishers they don't want to spend money at what may be a lost cause. So I really do think it's unfair to, when a writer is unwilling to pay or unable to pay, to call them stingy. If a writer has the means, it is to his or her advantage to pay. But if he or she does not have this surplus then it is understandable. So when a writer requests work without pay don't insult him, just don't reply to his or her post. Because a writer could assume the other way around, that artists are greedy for charging pay rights. That too I do not believe. The way I see the artists who charge for their work do so to enable them to work on comics, and if the artist were not being paid he would not be available. Many great artists fall into this category. Yet at the same time I don't think it is wrong for a writer to expect an honest partnership, for the two partners together to work towards the same goal for publishing. It is a reality that many artists will only work for payment, and I don't think it is wrong for a writer to look for a free artist.

[twotontongue]

I can't say I have taken the time to read all this thread, so forgive me if I am just repeating what has been said already...


This is just a general rule that applies in life when consider World Class performers of any kind, and the middle class performers taken from Steve Seibold's book "Turning Mediocrity into Greatness"...

He essentially says, people of the World Class level of skill recognize that hard work doesn't have to have an immediate payout. Middle class people need instant gratification and won't delay a payout in favor of a bigger payout down the line, where as the world class realize they are essentially selling their heart and soul with their ideas, not just trading their time for money.

So while I totally have nothing against an artist taking a gig to make money for the short term payout, a gig is a gig after all and there's nothing wrong with that...sometimes it needs to be done to pay the bills...HOWEVER, if they are aiming for achieving true greatness in their field, attaching themselves to a superior product (in this case, a writer who can't pay much at the moment but has an awesome story) that will surely garner more attention is a better career path that will lead to better future paying projects and a bigger payout in the end

So it's all about if you absolutely need that money now, but if you don't it's a bit silly to waste your time on projects that aren't going to gather you much more than whatever payment you are getting up front.

[Kagaenod]

A point I've seen made earlier in this thread is that the reason an artist will charge is because they don't believe in the project. And I understand that. I do believe however as you do, that if one believes in a project that they should be open to not being paid for it. But it's very hard to break into the comic industry, so it's hard to have confidence. But I'm reminded of an artist I work with, who plans to have his project featured in anthologies and as a webcomic to advertise his product. But then again, the original idea was the artist's and he recruited me, not the other way around, so I'm sure he feels more personal attachment to the comic we're working on. And many writers don't give all the details of their pitch for for fear of someone stealing their ideas. My point being is that it's hard to for an artist to find confidence in a project, so I can see why they would charge. But it does happen. One artist I worked with kept going even after I lost my job because he believed in the project. Not that he went all the way, his father died and he backed out of the project, but the point is there. Others have claimed that it's hard to find a writer of a decent caliber also. I'm not sure how true that is since I've never had to search, but I'm sure it's true in the sense that if you want a particular sort of writer with specific skills one has difficulty. I remember an artist wanting a writer to write a comic set in Hawaii, and it was required that the writer had knowledge of Hawaii history and culture and preferably was Hawaiian. I see this all the time, with artists setting pretty specific guidelines that are hard to meet. I've also heard claim that it's hard to find a dedicated writer who's willing to spend time, and charging money is a good way to weed out those who aren't up for the task. I'm sure it works that way, but it also gives you less people to choose from. But it's like that for writers too, in that it's hard to find a dedicated artist, and paying is a good way to guarantee a partnership. All in all it's hard to find a creative partner, but not impossible. If you have a good pitch you usually get good responses, but it's always good to make several pitches in my opinion. I once pitched a vampire comic, no responses. Then I pitch a comic about Amelia Earhart and suddenly, a swarm of responses. All in all, it's hard to find an artistic partner and to find a project both parties love. But another reason to work on a project you don't love is practice, and I've certainly done plenty of that, and many artists offer their services in the name of practice. I've had a lot of success in finding partners, but some failures too in that the artist drops out. So it's a little dodgy finding an artistic partner, but it's worth a shot if you really want to make a comic.

[twotontongue]

Agreed to the last reply! It's definitely a challenge for a high quality artist to find a high quality writer or story to work on even if they are getting paid. For a truly great collaboration to work between both writer and artist, is the same problem a musician has when trying to start a long-term career driven band...it's like getting married in a way, because it requires similar thinking and desires and a willingness to make it work out...that of course is no small task. Comics at least offer the chance to work on a smaller scale, say an issue or a small run of issues, opposed to years and years that a musician may be looking for in terms of possible commitment.

As both a serious musician and serious comic writer searching for a serious comic artist who has the drive and motivation without a large upfront payment I am fully aware of the difficulty of acheiving this goal. But honestly, what is the alternative...to give up and just abandon your goal? That is surely the sign of one who is more a dreamer than a achiever, and also one to be avoided if you are serious about making it in this business.

So needing a little perseverance is a good thing really. But even someone like myself who is offering over 10 dollars a page has difficulty finding the right fit for an artist. I'd say as a whole, 10 dollars a page really isn't asking for much...although, if you are putting in so much time for your art, a few hundred bucks really shouldn't play such a large factor into one's motivation because honestly if you feel the project WON'T be one that will either make a lasting artistic contribution that is worth doing it for free, or won't become a much more profitable venture then why are you willing to spend so much time on something where the pay rate is a dollar an hour or less anyway? Maybe the artist is actually too insecure and not emotionally ready for success anyway since one could argue they are subconsciously choosing crappy projects that will yield very little results. So in that sense, is 200-300 dollars really that big of a deal?? No, but yet...it all depends on one's current situation, sometimes even a small bit of extra money is all you need to help get you through while waiting for the longer results.

I say as a writer, it's a good affirmation in your project to be willing to invest in it yourself so you should offer what you can. Sadly for myself 200-400 dollars is a lot of money for me in my current state, but a valid investment none the less that is worth the extra hardship it will cost...now if only I could find the right damn artist. lol

[Kagaenod]

Perhaps you should try other sites to look for artists. Digital webbing I know is a pretty decent site, but let google be your guide. Search Writer looking for Artist or vice versa, that's how I find the write sites to post on. One also has to be flexible. I oftentimes find myself working on someone else's idea, yet adding my own personal flair to it. I also often give artists multiple options from my own stash of ideas so they can choose what they want to work on. If you want to develop a specific idea it's pretty hard to find an artist though, and it's much easier to pay.

[dbppres]

i simply put it this way, if a writer won't make necessary sacrifices, to definitively prove absolute commitment, then how is an artist supposed to be expected to make the same level of involvement, realistically?

when i published mini-comics, i made sure that the least return that an artist and/or writer could expect for their time, was a pack of 10 copies of each, to sell for their own gain.

[Kagaenod]

As I said before, you can still have a dedicated and skilled writer who's dirt poor and can't afford even 10 dollars a page. And a writer having money may just mean that the writer has money. But I can understand your frustration with writers dropping out of projects, it seems to happen a lot with both writers and artists.

[dbppres]

if worse comes to worse, then sell some of your collections, or whatever else that isn't an irreplaceable part of your life. that's what sacrifice really is, making the HARD choices, and following through, to accomplish the publication goal.

[dbppres]

double post, sorry.

[dbppres]

i apologize about these double postings, but i'm doing this from my phone.

[imaginarypeople]

http://faitherinhicks.tumblr.com/post/3 ... c-for-free

[dbppres]

erin, WHY are you asking for more projects, if you're "too busy" already? do you realize how much rhat makes you look like a liar, and untrustworthy, or you don't care?

[imaginarypeople]

i didn't write that i just thought it went along with the discussion here. i also agree with most of what it says.
my name is Justin

[dbppres]

which thread are you agreeing with, the tumblr one, or this one?

[vanasty]

curious about how things are on the other side of the spectrum, how should a comic script writer charge for their services? Per page? Word Count?