why is $10/pg too much for you writers?

ld-airgrafix · Post by **ld-airgrafix** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:27 pm

Ok, LadyDeath, i understand what you mean about not lowering your price, and you have some good points there, especially when you have heaps of work, but what about when there is shortage of work. Take my airbrushing hobby for example, i have done few paying jobs, but its a struggle to find customers, so i can either sit on my sofa and watch tv the whole day, or i can accept that low paying job and get $20 in my pocket.
Same goes for comics, i can either draw for free and hope it gets picked up by publisher or accept $50.
I suppose there is no answer for this, its personal choice.

LadyDeath · Post by **LadyDeath** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:50 pm

Where are you looking for work? It can be rough getting started and a pain in the ass sifting through sites, job postings (and I recommend getting a profile on odesk and elance for every artist and writer) but you need to keep applying and you will find stuff. Believe me there are a lot of jobs out there.

One key is doing it online because you can find employers in other countries whose economies aren't suffering. I'm illustrating for a lot of people in Australia believe it or not. I had another employer in the Ukraine and one in Pakistan. And from time to time I get one in the U.S. too. There are jobs you just need to know where to look for them and who to apply to.

For example it bothers me that people always say 'the big two' in comics - as if there is ONLY Marvel and DC. They aren't accepting submissions right now and there have very specific things they look for. I'm looking to get published with other comic publishers primarily because I think I'd be a better fit for the other publishers but also because there is a better chance of me getting published. (I also read more comics from non-marvel/dc publishers anyway) There are TONS of publishers out there - heres the best way to find them. Go to a book store and pick up different books that are of the same genre or even something you already own and like and see who publishes them. Some may be a dead end (like if you own scott pilgrim you think oni press and they aren't accepting anything right now) but some do like if you own JTHM (slg is i believe still accepting submissions).

Also you need to think about what else you can do with your talents. A lot of people on here are (forgive my lack of wording) condemning themselves to comics. Comics are wonderful and I love them and you shouldn't give up doing them but think about what else you could do at the very least to earn a living. You can illustrate for newspapers, cd albums, advertising, etc.

When it comes to money you may have to take a little less at first to earn a reputation but there are certain prices that are just insulting. Some people on odesk want someone to do a job for 1 $ or 1$ an hour which is just absolutely ridiculous. Don't take that job. I think you can assess on your own what's a good price or not. Part of the way I judge is based off of what other people are bidding on something.

There is work you just have to find it. I've had to sift through 43 pages of jobs I hated or couldn't do before I found ones I could that would pay me well. It takes patience, time, and effort but you will find things. There isn't a shortage of work you just need to find out where it's hiding.

Plus hopefully the economy will get better in the next couple of years otherwise I'm moving to germany anyway.

dbppres · Post by **dbppres** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:30 pm

here is a more recent sample quick-sketch from a talented, cheap artist.

ld-airgrafix · Post by **ld-airgrafix** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:03 pm

Dbppress, is this for a book, or are you just buying random sketches

There are heaps of talented artists out there who are cheap, and vice versa, even on this forum, i have seen artists advertising themselves $20+ a page, and they are pretty bad.

dbppres · Post by **dbppres** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:12 pm

i'm showing writers that there is at least 1 artist available, that is capable of doing actual action sequences, and will work for a minimal cost.

all that they have to do, is either offer some reasonable amount of payment, either onlie or locally, and they shouldn't have to wait so long to get their project started.

ld-airgrafix · Post by **ld-airgrafix** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:17 pm

Dbppres are u an artist or a writer? i agree with you offering any kind of payment is better than nothing.
Does anyone actually know, how publishing works? Lets say your book gets published by a publisher, its really successful and copies are flying off the shelves. How do you actually get paid, is it in a lump sum from a publisher or do you get a share of every copy sold?

LadyDeath · Post by **LadyDeath** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:04 am

Dbppres are u an artist or a writer? i agree with you offering any kind of payment is better than nothing.
Does anyone actually know, how publishing works? Lets say your book gets published by a publisher, its really successful and copies are flying off the shelves. How do you actually get paid, is it in a lump sum from a publisher or do you get a share of every copy sold?

I imagine people are tired of me responding but if I can be helpful I'd imagine you'd want to hear it.

Artist and writer here. How you make money is based on the individual contract you write up with the company that is publishing you. Sometimes there is a lump sum and sometimes its royalties and sometimes both. It's just all based on what you're able to negotiate and come up with. Publishers can be a bit ruthless especially if you're a no name, but I think it's best to get a contract that gives up upfront payment and a percentage of sales.

ld-airgrafix · Post by **ld-airgrafix** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:53 am

LadyDeath wrote:
Dbppres are u an artist or a writer? i agree with you offering any kind of payment is better than nothing.
Does anyone actually know, how publishing works? Lets say your book gets published by a publisher, its really successful and copies are flying off the shelves. How do you actually get paid, is it in a lump sum from a publisher or do you get a share of every copy sold?
I imagine people are tired of me responding but if I can be helpful I'd imagine you'd want to hear it.

Artist and writer here. How you make money is based on the individual contract you write up with the company that is publishing you. Sometimes there is a lump sum and sometimes its royalties and sometimes both. It's just all based on what you're able to negotiate and come up with. Publishers can be a bit ruthless especially if you're a no name, but I think it's best to get a contract that gives up upfront payment and a percentage of sales.

I'm hopeless at negotiating, hate this part of running a business. Just recently a friend asked me to quote him some canvas prices, wants avengers airbrushed for his brother, I loved discussing ideas with him, until he asked how much. And I as usual underpriced it.

mikekennedy · Post by **mikekennedy** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:42 am

dbppres wrote:here is a more recent sample quick-sketch from a talented, cheap artist.Image Replaced With URL For Only One Quote MOD: http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-a ... 8507_n.jpg

dbppres, is there an online portfolio to see more of your work? it's all good showing a bit of art work here but many like to see some physical evidence of past stuff future stuff etc.

i may be mistaken and you may have a brilliant deviant art page/blog or whatever but all i can see here is some half naked men.

dbppres · Post by **dbppres** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:50 pm

the problem is, that the artist who sketched that picture, has told me that he doesn't have any past pagework, or internet access, as well as no scanner to post artwork. so, i've basically assumed the task of posting his work. anyway, as you can see, he's good, fast, and right now, inexpensive.

LadyDeath · Post by **LadyDeath** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:12 pm

I'm hopeless at negotiating, hate this part of running a business. Just recently a friend asked me to quote him some canvas prices, wants avengers airbrushed for his brother, I loved discussing ideas with him, until he asked how much. And I as usual underpriced it.

I've been learning this myself lately. When someone asks you to do something for them start by asking them questions to narrow down what they want (size, in color, black and white, sketch, etc.) Then tell them you will price it and get back to them so you don't end up fumbling on the spot and throwing out a number.

On your own calculate first the specific cost of the materials you're using. I'm going to use a formal painting example, you can easily modify it to the tools you're using. For this example let's say you're using a canvas, 10% of 7 tubes of paint, a paintbrush and water.

First the canvas at 5$
Each tube of paint individually costs we'll say 7$ (7$x7bottles=49$, 10% of 49 is 4.90$) So 4.90$ paint.
You do the paint brush the same way you do the paint. Say you use 5 different brushes. 1 is 5$, 1 is 9$, 1 is 11$, 1 is 14$, and one is 17$. (5+9+11+14+17=56$. Ok now you determine how long those brushes will last you (this doesn't have to be perfect, because who knows just approximate) say they'll last you through 50 paintings. 56$ divided by 50 = 1.12$
Water I would say just add 1$ obviously this is probably more than how much you'd actually pay for the 4 or so cups of water you'd use but it's good to build it into cost.

So we're at 12.02$. Now we're not done this is simply the money that you already spent on the materials to make the piece. Now you determine how much you get paid an hour to produce the work and time yourself to see how many hours it takes.

Say it takes you 4 hours at 11$ an hour = 44$ which then = 56.02 and there's your price.

If you're doing it for a friend you can price your wage an hour lower if you want but I would say don't go below 7.50$. Also it's best to try not to price yourself too high either. Some new artists get carried away and say 'I'm worth 50$ an hour!'...sure you are...be reasonable. I would say 10$ is a good starting place and anywhere in the teens is also quite reasonable. Try not to exceed 30$ unless a lot of people really want a piece of you (therefore making your time more valuable).

If you at the very least stick to this model then you shouldn't feel guilty about over or under pricing.

Is this helpful? Does it make sense?

ld-airgrafix · Post by **ld-airgrafix** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:33 pm

Thanks LadyDeath, i appreciate you taking time to help out (but i really think you just like to write, ha ha).
I will give you my version of how i try and calculate the price. Canvas large size costs me around $20,amount of paints i will use roughly $20.
Lets say $20 for electricity (compressor) thats already $60.
Timing is my biggest problem, it would help alot if i had 3 or 4 airbrush guns, as that would save me hours not having to clean the gun everytime i change the colour, but at $150 for a mid range iwata airbrush, that wont happen any time soon. Unlike digital art there is no undo button in traditional art, so when you make a mistake , takes alot longer to cover it, not to mention when the gun gets clogged and spits paint all over your beautiful artwork.

dbppres · Post by **dbppres** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:35 am

he uses discount-store pencils, and sketchpads. he uses writing pens and/or sharpie markers, for inking, but, they still get the job done-to my satisfaction-anyway.

mikekennedy · Post by **mikekennedy** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:00 am

i think there is always a moral dilema in that kind of thing when it,s freinds and family.what settles my mind is usually getting the calculated figure then knocking a bit off to get a good round figure that doesn't put them off in the future but still gives you enough profit.Dbppress,i'm not sure whether you're reffering to yourself here or you're his agent but you have to get some page work done as samples for whoever you wish to show it to.whether its small press magazines or potential collaborators.show you are worth the money..trying to not blow my own horn here' when i finished school in may i immeadiatly started doing pages of various self initiated things that play to my strenghts. At the same time i started checking out various blogs sites .chosing wordpress i developed the blog .Please take a look at my blog and go back in the archives to see what i mean www.michaelkennedyillustrationart.wordpress.com..to be honest dbpress i was less than sympathetic for you but i hope this helps.

dbppres · Post by **dbppres** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:40 am

mike, basically i have taken it upon myself to act on his behalf, providing that his inaccessibility problem is an actual issue.

anyway, i'm not really looking for people to be sympathetic, in somuch as realistic about a lot of these writers' level of of true commitment to their own projects, and being willing to part with a minimum of cash that more than likely they do have-habitually spent frivolously to a large extent-but aren't willing to invest seriously into their own project.

i am hoping that some writers will try to take the suggestions for resources of talent acquisition, and apply them in their local vicinity, and hopefully put a team together, and finally get their projects past the proposal stage.

Alextrog · Post by **Alextrog** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:28 am

It's funny how this thread is so much longer than any other.

dbppres · Post by **dbppres** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:01 pm

because alex, this subject needs to be ironed out, with the writers understanding, that it isn't truly and honestly fair, for them to expect free work done for them, when they themselves usually expect payment for doing the tasks at their resopective places of employment.

HOWEVER, i am totally and completely opposed to ANY kind of demand made by artists or writers, that they be paid upfront, before doing any work.

ArcTanGentleman · Post by **ArcTanGentleman** » Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:07 am

HA! You just compared the TOTAL number of writers to the number of DECENT artists... leave the math to us math nerds pelase. An artist I know spent 6 weeks doing the worst piece of drek I have ever read in my life. Beautifully illustrated, by the way. He didn't write it though. Sufficed to say, he made nothing and pulled the work from his site a few months later. 6 weeks... for nothing. LITERALLY. Oh and seriously, it was gorgeous.

Also, there is the stereotype of the 'starving artist'. There are dozens of wannabe writers, but what of THEIR skills? Let's take one published author. And her work of fiction. It was crap... she's sold novels, and it was crap (not her novels, her fiction). (Luckily, she's not on this site and is a bit of a... well... she pulled a CC-licensed work of hers before I could rewrite and fix the entire thing for her. I actually found out as I was going to read it). She is great... if you want to make a comic about '_Blank_ and the City'! Yeah.... um... no. And you're assuming I need one of those elect few artists.

You're also assuming the best writers need artists. They're called NOVELS!
Try getting J.K.Rowlings, George Lucas, or Stan Lee to give you 50% on the backend.

Also, did you mean 50% for the issue, or 50% for the entirety of the creative work overall, including derivatives? If derivatives/series as well, then how's he going to get an artist to draw the next issue after you quit? And if it's the issue... why so little? Actually, I just dropped everything I had (sadly, $20) on a commission with an artist, as a 'work for hire' to get enough (from crowd-funding) to get my next commission.

The 50% plus 50% plus 50%, etc... is the problem. If each artist contributes something he deserves half right... so... what percentage is 35 halves? *head tilt*

What if the artist quits? What if the writer quits? (I'm not going to quit, it's MY baby). What if the artist isn't good enough, I've promised him half... what then? Worse yet, what if the artist turns out to be Rob Leifeld in disguise! (Little joke, honestly, I'd take Leifeld drunk. stoned, sleepy, and using his off hand, any day of the week. If I had the cash... though I'd probably hire someone less experienced to be more economical.)

There will always be 'dozens' of everything for every 'decent' artist. But, if you think a 'decent' artist can succeed with a 'decent' writer, you have a low bar for success. I expect something to be interesting, some part of the work to be unique, some part to be good.

Finally, you assume success requires great art. Actually, more often than not, I think consistent art is more important. And honestly, depending on the concept... if I can get good concept art in a simple style... I could even make do with art many might consider terrible. There's actually a professional cartoon show drawn with wobbly lines and terrible art.

Great success requires great art... but honestly, I consider it a success if the artist gets paid fairly for his time and it pays enough for one more issue. Admittedly, that can't continue forever, it will (eventually) either succeed beyond expectations or flop so bad it doesn't earn a profit for the next one.

Honestly, I find it funny him saying that to writers. This is a comic forum, there are tons of fanboys claiming to be writers... but I wonder how many have actual skill. I, myself, cannot claim to have written anything much. I lose most of what I write and I finish little... but I have to write. And, I am sure enough of my potential to risk a portion of my very meager earnings. (Admittedly, as a work for hire... but... I'm not sure I could do it any other way.) And I've got to say... it was barely enough to buy 2 pages from you, and I got it from another artist as a work for hire because it was all I could afford. And it STINGS... and it didn't quite turn out like I'd hoped. The works are interesting, but I had hoped that they would be enough that people would see a glimpse of the worlds inside my head and want to help me get them out.

I need a brain printer... or an investor to pay the artist.

dbppres: What makes you think we expect artists to work for free when we will be paid? What makes you think we expect to be paid? You know who the lowest paid person is... usually... directors creating a work they've pushed through the door. I think the writers here are more like directors... hoping for their big break. If they had the money, i think they'd pay it. If it would get them what they want.

That said... you do realize there are also artists posting expecting writers to work for free, in pretty much equal numbers.

Why do I say equal. It's simple... to claim to be an artist you have to show your art... to claim to be a writer for a comic book... well... you'll find many people who probably don't have an idea of the term 'panel layout' and expect to write a few cool lines like 'hasta-levista baby'.

it's like the difference between men and women. Women get tons of offers, but only a few are for marriage, if any. A man might get few, or none, but if you compare offers in terms of weight, you will find that things are more equal than you might surmise.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to look for an artist giving away free stick figures. (I know, I get what I pay for, that's fair. Maybe the rest of us know too.

Also, you seem to be a bit deluded as to how saturated the market is. Deviantart has 14.5 million members. In a random sampling, I find at least 10% to be good enough for my needs. That means, on one single website, 1.45 milion.

Also, the population of the united states is 303 million, meaning that potentially up to 4% of the population of the united states are artists, and at least .4% are good enough.

Ah, actual statistics.
http://www.princeton.edu/~artspol/quick ... mploy.html
2 million...
That's 2 million profesional artists.
http://www.studentscholarships.org/prof ... ditors.php
200,000 professional writers.
In other words, there are 10% as many EMPLOYED writers as there are EMPLOYED artists. This leads to an implied disparity in the challenges face. Honestly, I think your market is saturated, not mine, and I'm not terribly worried about the competition for writing comic books. Sure, I really need to finish something... XD but... in terms of at least one aspect of the english language I am in the top 2% worldwide (or was), in another, I am in the top 10%. I grew up without TV and used to play imagination games as a child... I think that's enough of an edge, don't you?

My cousin was head waiter, he's giving it a go as a photographer now... he's an amazing artist... but he still doesn't make a living at it. He's also better than a lot of the people asking for money on here. And he's still not quite good enough to make it as a comic artist... yet. (style-wise, he's an amazing painter though) If he practiced, he would be.

The math clearly states, your field is a lot more saturated. (And I've known this for a while... you don't want to know how many aspiring artists I knew in college). Any discrepancy you see on the forums is a bunch of kids who stopped writing their 'mary sue' fanfics where they beat up Mr. Invincible, to come here and write a comic. Welcome to my reality Mr. Press.

Honestly, I'd prefer to pay artists up front if I had the $$$. That's part of the reason work for hire is good. You don't have to worry about forcing someone whose style is incompatible into doing a work they're really not right for just because, due to a 1-shot, they own half of it. XD

And this is the short version of my post.

In the past year, creators I know have used Kickstarter to take their projects directly to the people, fund and publish the comics and make money for all involved.
If a comic can't get enough interest to get Crowdfunded, it's likely not a good idea or not quality made and therefore is a waste of time.
With Crowdfunding there is no excuse for these "Back End" schemes.

Um... right... kick-starter is generally for projects already under way. I'm actually trying to get concept art for something like a kick-starter (though, I don't quite meet kick-starters requirements yet, and likely won't be able to due to lack of funds, and I'm not really going for that. I'm actually trying for concept art for a 'pin up' of a character, to start.)

ArcTanGentleman · Post by **ArcTanGentleman** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:28 pm

Oh and ld-airgrafx... does the fact that you have to clean your sprayer multiple times and that it takes you hours in any way increase costs other than labor or decrease sales? The people I know who do airbrushings usually rent themselves out for events where they do tons of airbrushings. In fact, there was one at my college where you got a free airbrushed t-shirt, the school paid for all the shirts, the artist, and the time involved. If you had multiple brushes... hmm... actually, try contacting a local university if materials are an issue. Maybe even offer to do it for supplies and keeping the nozzles).

ld-airgrafix · Post by **ld-airgrafix** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:38 am

ArcTanGentleman wrote:Oh and ld-airgrafx... does the fact that you have to clean your sprayer multiple times and that it takes you hours in any way increase costs other than labor or decrease sales? The people I know who do airbrushings usually rent themselves out for events where they do tons of airbrushings. In fact, there was one at my college where you got a free airbrushed t-shirt, the school paid for all the shirts, the artist, and the time involved. If you had multiple brushes... hmm... actually, try contacting a local university if materials are an issue. Maybe even offer to do it for supplies and keeping the nozzles).

Well airbrushing is a hobby for me, so I don't charge hourly, in saying that, don't think of me as a tightarse either, if I had enough jobs coming in, I would definitely get 2 or 3 higher quality airbrushes, mid range Iwattas cost about $150-$200 depending on store, so you see 3 would set me back up to $600, unfortunately a job every few months doesn't really warrant me buying more tools. Airbrushing in Australia is still unknown and unlike USA, to see an airbrush artist in a mall, doing shirts is impossible, so far I haven't seen one in 30 years of my life. Yes I do get enquiries through my website, but that's all they are. It seems they want it done for free, the other day I quoted a fully airbrushed ps3 with his choice of art for $100, never heard from him again. Am I crazy for quoting this low, definitely yes, but its either $60 profit in my pocket or nothing. I don't ask for money upfront, I even tell them you don't like take it don't pay me a cent, because I'm confident in my self, so I can make these promises, still nothing. I got in with an Australian helmet maker, we even ran a competition on a bike forum to win a free helmet with personal choice of airbrushing, all they had to do is write what they thought was an ideal airbrushed helmet, guess what? Forum has more than 20 000 registered members, we had about 7 entries, 3 of them wanted penises and boobs. I even scoured Australian gaming forums, they all loved and were amazed by my art, I also ran a competition on there, to get their console airbrushed for free, no entries. I have done canvases for friends and family, their friends are amazed, but don't want anything done for themselves. I'm actually thinking of giving airbrushing away.

naffslack · Post by **naffslack** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:00 am

Back to the title of the original post. I wouldn't pay 10$ a page purely for the reason that an artist charging so little will more than likely not be of a skill level that I would be ok spending my money on. No offence to any artists out there but I want the best I can get and that's why I'm paying 80$ a page. Sounds like a lot but his art is just superb and I get it lettered too. Anyway its just what your expectations are cuz its true that you get what you pay for.

ld-airgrafix · Post by **ld-airgrafix** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:50 am

naffslack wrote:Back to the title of the original post. I wouldn't pay 10$ a page purely for the reason that an artist charging so little will more than likely not be of a skill level that I would be ok spending my money on. No offence to any artists out there but I want the best I can get and that's why I'm paying 80$ a page. Sounds like a lot but his art is just superb and I get it lettered too. Anyway its just what your expectations are cuz its true that you get what you pay for.

Naffslack, would you pay $10 for art like this, or would you simply disregard the artist because he says he charges $10

naffslack · Post by **naffslack** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:08 am

I would actually. It's good art, I think what I meant was, for my own project I'm working on currently I am investing in something more, more detal and so on. But if I was working on something else that your style would suit, sure, 10$ a page I could do a lot with budget wise.

I'm just a bit of a perfectionist, to a fault quite often.

LadyDeath · Post by **LadyDeath** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:14 am

Naffslack I think the idea behind the post is that artists should at least be paid 10$ as opposed to not getting paid anything. It's more or less a starting point.

Id-airgrafix - australia - holla!

Finally, you assume success requires great art. Actually, more often than not, I think consistent art is more important. And honestly, depending on the concept... if I can get good concept art in a simple style... I could even make do with art many might consider terrible. There's actually a professional cartoon show drawn with wobbly lines and terrible art.

I think the term great art is subjective, especially as often people are referring to art that is more commonplace or art that they personally consider the best or have been taught to consider is the best. Like marvel/dc - that style of comic book drawing is commonplace and is often considered the pinacle of drawing. I'm not much for that style, no offense to anyone but it's not my cup of tea. I prefer comics that have a more unique or defining style that's uncommon which makes me lean towards indie comics both in preference for reading and drawing style.

I do agree with the consistency bit. I can probably list tons of animations that are poorly drawn but that are really popular because of consistency - home movies and squid billies are just a couple examples.

But good art - or great art - adds a lot to a story, and what distinguishes a comic from a novel is that it has art so ideally it should be good - otherwise you should abandon the comic format and just write a novel as I suggested many pages ago. Also I should say that personally I can't bring myself to watch squid billies - and it was more or less an accident that i've seen home movies. I don't think the shows are SO good that I should tolerate the art to be honest. (and i'm not sure the stories are great really...)

I tolerate shows much longer that have good art and bad story than have good story and bad art (although I must say i'm pressed to find a story with bad art and a -great- story. That's kind of rare to impossible really - you also start to get into subjective territory if the art is only bad to you or not as realistic as marvel or dc.

Red garden is a good example of not the best story but great art - the story has eventually grown on me but the first time I watched it I felt that the story wasn't done as well as it could have been but the art was gorgeous so I kept watching. It wasn't until I watched it the second time through with a friend of mine that I finally liked how the story was done.

Also I tend to think art is the most complete language on this planet as it can communicate more than any written language, so whenever possible use art to communicate. (Music is the second most complete

) This is also why I tolerate good art bad story more. Like I said if you have an example of great story bad art I'd love to hear it, I can't think of any that fit that.