why is $10/pg too much for you writers?
Moderator: Moderators
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dbppres
I think age and experience are a factor as well as your DESIRE to work. My first paying art job was background inks for DC comics issues in the late 80's and I was getting $20 a page back then, just doing background inks. Minimum wage was like $3.15 an hour at the time and I was doing a page in about two hours or so.
Now I am 40 years old, I have worked full time in the art field since I was 17, I have only worked art jobs, now I make so much more per hour.
A few days back I posted a message, here on this forum, that I was available for inking because I want to get back into the comics field and I would work for cheap so i could build up a new comics portfolio... My last comics job was in the early 90's. I left because I got paid more elsewhere, now it has become a DESIRE for me to work on comics again, money is no longer an issue... No, I won't work for free, but yes I will work for cheap to help people out with new projects, etc.
I have posted that and I have replied to four people doing new projects for as low as $30 a page and nobody bothers to email back and the one guy who did said he only had a $40 budget and needed 10 pages?? Really? you have all these plans and a 'kick ass story' that you know will make 'millions', but you can only pay $4 per page???
It seems like there is a ton of talk on here about people who want to write, people who want to draw, people who need writers, people who want artists, but when it comes down to it, very few people actually have the desire to do more than talk about doing things or are teenagers with dreams and no real business plan to actually do anything.
Now I am 40 years old, I have worked full time in the art field since I was 17, I have only worked art jobs, now I make so much more per hour.
A few days back I posted a message, here on this forum, that I was available for inking because I want to get back into the comics field and I would work for cheap so i could build up a new comics portfolio... My last comics job was in the early 90's. I left because I got paid more elsewhere, now it has become a DESIRE for me to work on comics again, money is no longer an issue... No, I won't work for free, but yes I will work for cheap to help people out with new projects, etc.
I have posted that and I have replied to four people doing new projects for as low as $30 a page and nobody bothers to email back and the one guy who did said he only had a $40 budget and needed 10 pages?? Really? you have all these plans and a 'kick ass story' that you know will make 'millions', but you can only pay $4 per page???
It seems like there is a ton of talk on here about people who want to write, people who want to draw, people who need writers, people who want artists, but when it comes down to it, very few people actually have the desire to do more than talk about doing things or are teenagers with dreams and no real business plan to actually do anything.
Amen to this. I think a lot of people don't know how to do it but think they do. A lot of the wannabe's have very large egos, they think they're great and don't need to listen to anyone else. That also has to do with the "i want someone to work for me for free or for a very small amount' - why? Because my story is soooo great! They aren't thinking about the person who has to do a butt load of work with no compensation and ultimately they aren't thinking of anything that person gets in return (the portfolio thing is a cop out), they think about their story and what it could mean for them only.It seems like there is a ton of talk on here about people who want to write, people who want to draw, people who need writers, people who want artists, but when it comes down to it, very few people actually have the desire to do more than talk about doing things or are teenagers with dreams and no real business plan to actually do anything.
Often these unrealistic dreamer children have vague ideas, unfounded ambition, lots of desires that are unrelated to the actual project and more in relationship to how other people perceive them or will perceive them - but no actual way of accomplishing them and no journey in mind only the 'endpoint'. The endpoint is typically - I'm successful and famous and everyone thinks i'm awesome and that my story is great and it's published and may or may not have an animated series, movie, toys, etc. Aren't I just great? They also imagine that this will happen over night. Most people don't realize that doesn't happen, it doesn't even happen for the people who you think it happens for. You only get to see the part where suddenly they're famous but they had to put in a lot of years before that moment. (And if they truly are one of those people who become a sensation over night -the 15 minutes of fame- thing, then they'll fizzle out and won't be popular after the next night. But people typically want the long term famous not the 15 minutes).
I've met far too many people like the above. I am completely encouraging to those who are actually pursuing this path, who are openminded, hard workers, and who typically already have some track record but I do discourage people who are like the above. People like that don't get discouraged anymore - their parents think they're wonderful and teachers aren't allowed to say when they are terrible.
So I have a story. My senior year in high school I was an editor for a literary magazine at my school. I looked through the writing submissions and helped decide which made it and which didn't. The teacher who presided over us decided to tell us that one girl had been submitting all 4 years and never got in and that this year she wanted us to publish one piece of her work only because she was a senior. Now when we were told who it was it turned out it was a piece of poetry we had already all read and rejected. It was absolutely terrible. This girl was trying to invent new cliche'd phrases - like rather than using sad puppy dog eyes she'd use sad dolphin eyes, flat pancake hand with icicle fingertips. It was god awful. The teacher wanted us to find a way to put it in so we heavily edited it - we got rid of entire pages, well over half the piece. Wrote new things, changed sentences. By the end of it the piece should've said written by her and team, or just us really. We'd only print it with the changes (although really none of us wanted to publish it). The girl said she was fine with that and actually liked it better (of course she did...) and it got published.
Honestly, it should've never been published this is a girl who was always quite egotistical when it came to her poetry and she would often go around saying she was a writer when there was no proof to support that - in my opinion she needed to get slapped down hard. A teacher forced the literary magazine to publish it because 'well she's been submitting all these years and she's a senior now she won't be able to submit anymore'. No, she shouldn't have been published - would something like that happen in the real world? Well this guy has submitted over 100 times - yea but his stuff is trash, so no. And that's what happens today, this is the generation that gets rewarded with gold stickers for going to the bathroom in school and expect the real world to be like that.
Trying is not an accomplishment, anyone can try. Succeeding is an accomplishment and you are only a writer or an artist if you have evidence. Never been published? Then you're not a real writer.
I'm not angry, this is just how I feel. But it's alright once people enter the real world it's easy to see who is legit and who is not. You're unique and special, just like everybody else.
Oh.This.Planet.
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dbppres
well, LD and others, would some compensational copies of the published book, for personal sale, be of worthwhile incentive, to join projects? in lieu of page rates, i sent 10 copies, to each person involved in the submission of material for the minibooks that i published, as well as a percentage for each sale. would that have been acceptable terms?
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dbppres
Drop Outs
Yeah that is a common problem among artists and writers alike, that they think they're dedicated and think they have time and later drop out. Or even worse, they'll contact someone and then disappear off the grid. Now I can't afford to pay an artist so I probably am more likely to be burned than a guy who can offer payment, but I hear this is a problem for those who pay as well. In a way there's something to say for publishers only wanting proven folks, a lot of the perspective comic creators can't work regularly.
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ArcTanGentleman
- Regular Poster
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- Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:49 pm
You claim you can't find good artwork with terrrible writing... but the truth is that you can't find it... it's lost in the abyss of the internet.
There was a man who wrote a comic... it was utter garbage, he wasted 6 weeks of his life for $0(Actually, $17, I think), but the artwork was beautiful... nobody read it. XKCD and El Goonish Shive are both fairly light on the artistic skill required (though I wouldn't call them bad, the first ones stick figures are very clean, and Dan Shive has progressed a lot since he started). He pulled it from his website and no longer uses it in his portfolio, to the best of my knowledge he still seeks full time employment.
Another artist complained about needing food. He has created some of the most amazing paintings I have ever seen. Vibrant, colorful, sure I complain that he included a minor error (his only one) at the visual focal point... but still... he should be able to get a job in art. There are/were 2 million artists working in the field (these are your competiton). Mine is only 200,000. So I have it easier.
Should artists be paid, yes, does supply and demand dictate that they be employed at all? No. I don't think, in this flooded of a field, that any artists are paid what they're worth. I saw one artist selling his paintings (original, admittedly linked to something that triggers fanboyism) for $7000 a piece, while another struggled, pricing original art from actual comics at $600. Is the first one better, yes... especially at playing to what people want. Am I worried that the second one will have to get a day job and abandon his own comic, also yes, but I made him a pitch and he seemed more enthused about reading it and too focusied on what he wants to do... so... his survival depends on his ability to both write and draw... and that's fair.
Survival depends on actions taken, and that's fair.
Anyway, off I go to check my commission. One I made when I had money. XD.
There was a man who wrote a comic... it was utter garbage, he wasted 6 weeks of his life for $0(Actually, $17, I think), but the artwork was beautiful... nobody read it. XKCD and El Goonish Shive are both fairly light on the artistic skill required (though I wouldn't call them bad, the first ones stick figures are very clean, and Dan Shive has progressed a lot since he started). He pulled it from his website and no longer uses it in his portfolio, to the best of my knowledge he still seeks full time employment.
Another artist complained about needing food. He has created some of the most amazing paintings I have ever seen. Vibrant, colorful, sure I complain that he included a minor error (his only one) at the visual focal point... but still... he should be able to get a job in art. There are/were 2 million artists working in the field (these are your competiton). Mine is only 200,000. So I have it easier.
Should artists be paid, yes, does supply and demand dictate that they be employed at all? No. I don't think, in this flooded of a field, that any artists are paid what they're worth. I saw one artist selling his paintings (original, admittedly linked to something that triggers fanboyism) for $7000 a piece, while another struggled, pricing original art from actual comics at $600. Is the first one better, yes... especially at playing to what people want. Am I worried that the second one will have to get a day job and abandon his own comic, also yes, but I made him a pitch and he seemed more enthused about reading it and too focusied on what he wants to do... so... his survival depends on his ability to both write and draw... and that's fair.
Survival depends on actions taken, and that's fair.
Anyway, off I go to check my commission. One I made when I had money. XD.
I think it best not to jump to conclusions about all artists too quickly everyone has their reasons for why things happen - some times there can be real life things occurring. Last week one of my best friends suddenly started bleeding and they couldn't get her to stop - she ended up missing a week and half of everything in her life. Shit happens. Plus I don't think that 'people thinking they're dedicated' is the reason. I know personally for me it's a combination of being overly-ambitous, not being able to say no and ending up booking too many projects, and then realizing there aren't 34 hours in a day. I end up having to put more time on some things and less on others. Learning to say no is an art that takes time to master unfortunately and is not as easy as it sounds. I like to please everyone, work with friends I love, do things that advance my career, and be accomplished - and how do I choose which thing to turn down? Which of these 5 piles of gold would you like? Um...all of them!Yeah that is a common problem among artists and writers alike, that they think they're dedicated and think they have time and later drop out.
ArcTan who are you talking to?You claim you can't find good artwork with terrrible writing
I disagree, they aren't your competitors. People can buy your art AND their art it's not one or the other. Plus someone may dig my style more and another person may dig the other style more - so it's not competition because even if they didn't exist that doesn't mean the person who liked their stuff would now buy mine because maybe mine is just not something they're into. People have preferences and those preferences are not universal. Every person who likes spiderman will not like superman - there may be some cross overs but there are a lot of people who don't (points to self) because as a comic enthusiast you don't have to buy every comic ever you just have to appeal to enough people to be successful. There are lots of people who are only ever cult phenomenons and never have a huge public following - but they're still really successful like jhonen vasquez or gris grimly. It's difficult to compare artwork and say who's is better, it's about what appeals to you more or what achieves what it's working to do better. The only person you are really ever competing against is yourself.There are/were 2 million artists working in the field (these are your competiton).
I think there are different levels of artists that are flooded sure - the first level 'wannabe artists', the next level 'artists who have talent but focus on fan fiction or imitation and who lack originality', then 'artists who have ability but who are not individual thinkers - these ones are cogs', and then you start to get into original artists with ability, with new inventions and worthwhile original ideas and these fields are not flooded at all and there is a high demand for these types of people there just aren't many of them. I think the wannabes and imitators make the field appear flooded, but it's not really.Should artists be paid, yes, does supply and demand dictate that they be employed at all? No. I don't think, in this flooded of a field, that any artists are paid what they're worth.
Plus as I mentioned in a separate post a lot of people get high and egotistical and price themselves very high or limit themselves to only certain kinds of art which overall limits what they can do or how they can make money. There are certain prices that it's perfectly ok to turn down - one guy wanted me to do 100 sketches for 20 dollars...um no. But don't act like one of your sketches is worth 1,200 dollars - until your famous this won't fly.
I'm going to go watch Monster High (Yes. Yes I am.) and ink a comic page.
Oh.This.Planet.
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dbppres
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Baconmoose
- Forum Member
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Well I've been thumbing through this thread and I admit it has given me some insight I was looking for.
I'm a comic book artist/writer myself and I've encountered a lot of writers that don't seem to think they should have to pay their artist a lot of money, and after reading this thread I now have a better understanding of why that is.
However I still think they're totally wrong.
I've learned how to write AND how to draw, and learning how to draw took at least twice as much time and effort as learning how to write. Writing the script for my comic takes a tiny fraction of the time it takes for me to draw all the pages. Writing is not even slightly as hard as drawing a comic book is, it's just not. That's why there are so many more writers than artists.
I agree that the writing AND the art are both EQUALLY IMPORTANT for a good comic book. I totally agree. However writing well and drawing well being so immensely unbalanced is the reason artists typically get paid a lot more off the bat.
Another problem is that it's easy to tell at a glance that an artist is good, but it's a little harder to tell if a writer is good. Half the time when someone hires me I don't know anything about their script until I agree to draw for them. Then I read the whole script and find it... lackluster. Not really compelling to me.
Most people can come up with a story idea; that doesn't make you a good writer. Furthermore, if I have my own story I want to tell I'd rather draw that than your story unless I'm getting some incentive. Chances are, I think my story is more interesting. That's why I wrote it.
The person who put it best was Bob who pointed out that a new 'writer' who wanted to self-publish or indie-publish their story was akin to someone starting a business. You're not doing it for the money, you're doing it for the story you love. You need to have enough start up money to hire employees--artists--to turn your business--your story--into something people are drawn to, and then you get the remaining profit if it succeeds. So by all means, know what you're doing first. That would cut out a large portion of writers who just aren't professional and don't have it together.
"The writer deserves to get paid just as much as the artist". I definitely agree that a person who's trying to be a writer deserves to get paid as one. If that's your bag, pitch your scripts to comic book companies alone! Only indie companies require completed projects, because project creators (writer/artist combos) usually have a specific story they want to tell, where as large companies like Marvel will give YOU things to work on and tell you what to write. Much like how when you hire us arists, you're not letting us draw something we personally came to you wanting to tell, you're telling us what to draw. If you're such a great writer then see if you can get accepted on your own merits without an artist.
I am a comic creator in that I wrote and drew my own comic book, and I haven't seen a DIME for it yet, however I did recently get the start of a publishing deal and I'm finishing the last 20 pages before I send it to the editor and it gets printed. It's not like I made a bunch of money to do that. I had to do it in my spare time while working my ass off drawing comics for other people that I don't have any investment in and where I have to fight to be treated as an actual human being and not some art-producing machine with no needs. If I didn't have to do that to eat and live, I would have my OWN book done and published by now and I could be making money off THAT. But the reason I persist in doing this despite the lack of profit is because I love my story and my comic and it's important to me.
I hope this brings some understandings to the comic book writers.
I'm a comic book artist/writer myself and I've encountered a lot of writers that don't seem to think they should have to pay their artist a lot of money, and after reading this thread I now have a better understanding of why that is.
However I still think they're totally wrong.
I've learned how to write AND how to draw, and learning how to draw took at least twice as much time and effort as learning how to write. Writing the script for my comic takes a tiny fraction of the time it takes for me to draw all the pages. Writing is not even slightly as hard as drawing a comic book is, it's just not. That's why there are so many more writers than artists.
I agree that the writing AND the art are both EQUALLY IMPORTANT for a good comic book. I totally agree. However writing well and drawing well being so immensely unbalanced is the reason artists typically get paid a lot more off the bat.
Another problem is that it's easy to tell at a glance that an artist is good, but it's a little harder to tell if a writer is good. Half the time when someone hires me I don't know anything about their script until I agree to draw for them. Then I read the whole script and find it... lackluster. Not really compelling to me.
Most people can come up with a story idea; that doesn't make you a good writer. Furthermore, if I have my own story I want to tell I'd rather draw that than your story unless I'm getting some incentive. Chances are, I think my story is more interesting. That's why I wrote it.
The person who put it best was Bob who pointed out that a new 'writer' who wanted to self-publish or indie-publish their story was akin to someone starting a business. You're not doing it for the money, you're doing it for the story you love. You need to have enough start up money to hire employees--artists--to turn your business--your story--into something people are drawn to, and then you get the remaining profit if it succeeds. So by all means, know what you're doing first. That would cut out a large portion of writers who just aren't professional and don't have it together.
"The writer deserves to get paid just as much as the artist". I definitely agree that a person who's trying to be a writer deserves to get paid as one. If that's your bag, pitch your scripts to comic book companies alone! Only indie companies require completed projects, because project creators (writer/artist combos) usually have a specific story they want to tell, where as large companies like Marvel will give YOU things to work on and tell you what to write. Much like how when you hire us arists, you're not letting us draw something we personally came to you wanting to tell, you're telling us what to draw. If you're such a great writer then see if you can get accepted on your own merits without an artist.
I am a comic creator in that I wrote and drew my own comic book, and I haven't seen a DIME for it yet, however I did recently get the start of a publishing deal and I'm finishing the last 20 pages before I send it to the editor and it gets printed. It's not like I made a bunch of money to do that. I had to do it in my spare time while working my ass off drawing comics for other people that I don't have any investment in and where I have to fight to be treated as an actual human being and not some art-producing machine with no needs. If I didn't have to do that to eat and live, I would have my OWN book done and published by now and I could be making money off THAT. But the reason I persist in doing this despite the lack of profit is because I love my story and my comic and it's important to me.
I hope this brings some understandings to the comic book writers.
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ArcTanGentleman
- Regular Poster
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- Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:49 pm
Editing:
What are you worth?
What is someone willing to pay?
It's called supply and demand. There is a minimum(called minimum wage), but beyond that, no guarantee's in life. Just yesterday I saw the former CEO of a company in the dollar store talking about how he wasn't going to work for minimum wage. He hasn't been employed in about 4 months and doesn't seem worried. I wish him well.
You assume that I am hiring you, this is a flawed assumption. Your future customers are hiring you, I'm merely providing a loan, which I risk 100% of(on my assumption that my idea is good), at or near the going rate of the art industry. Do I expect to make it back to you, no, I am extending that loan to your future customers, the ones who will buy the issue.
This makes sense if you think about it. In a sustainable manner, in a declining economy, how much of my livelihood can I give away? How much can you? You can't, I can't, the last time I hired an artist (with an amount someone else complained about) I was almost that exact amount short of rent, and could have been kicked out of my apartment or been left stranded had ONE more emergency/problem happened. In short, I risked my life for the small pittance that was spent that day (and I wish I could have given more and hired a professional comic artist or someone of equal skill). That was my first and last attempt to buy art last year. I plan to do it again, but I'm being more careful about it and going for a higher skill level at the going rate. (Professional, $40 for one work).
If you think you can make more money creating another non-comic art form (and you can), I suggest you go do so. If you expect me to pay so much that I die... it's not going to happen. And, ironically, what I spent wouldn't have been but a single page from most of you.
Dark Horse pays about $65 per page (covers are free) for writing, coloring, lettering, flatting, pencilling, and . So, apparently, by the same logic as this post, artists think writers, colorists, flatters, and letterers are worthless because they ask $60 for a sketch. Writers can earn more money writing a novel and must put up some of this out of pocket (or all of it).
http://www.writers.ca/index.php/compone ... y-a-writer
Hmm... the thing is, I see a lot of terrible writing. And those of you saying 'Writing isn't that hard'. Of course it's not, if you're terrible, or you're a genius... which one are you? Based on the fact that you don't have your own novel and/or comic out, or are looking for another writer, I'm going to guess 'not genius'. Stop diminishing people to elevate yourself, even if others agree with you it accomplishes nothing. (And yes, pot, kettle). Yes, writing takes less time... if you don't actually bother to write everything (which a lot of writers don't).
It's a business. Supply exists, competition exists, demand exists. It pays what it pays, I don't set it. If you don't like it, break the monopoly that exists in the industry, shatter it to pieces, and redefine it.
if you don't like that go do something else or figure out a way to earn more. As near as I can tell, the top 'Indie' rate is $65 per page. Here, it's rather low comparatively. In Japan, however, you could become a millionaire. Why are you here? Why am I? Oh right, I don't speak Japanese.
What are you worth?
What is someone willing to pay?
It's called supply and demand. There is a minimum(called minimum wage), but beyond that, no guarantee's in life. Just yesterday I saw the former CEO of a company in the dollar store talking about how he wasn't going to work for minimum wage. He hasn't been employed in about 4 months and doesn't seem worried. I wish him well.
You assume that I am hiring you, this is a flawed assumption. Your future customers are hiring you, I'm merely providing a loan, which I risk 100% of(on my assumption that my idea is good), at or near the going rate of the art industry. Do I expect to make it back to you, no, I am extending that loan to your future customers, the ones who will buy the issue.
This makes sense if you think about it. In a sustainable manner, in a declining economy, how much of my livelihood can I give away? How much can you? You can't, I can't, the last time I hired an artist (with an amount someone else complained about) I was almost that exact amount short of rent, and could have been kicked out of my apartment or been left stranded had ONE more emergency/problem happened. In short, I risked my life for the small pittance that was spent that day (and I wish I could have given more and hired a professional comic artist or someone of equal skill). That was my first and last attempt to buy art last year. I plan to do it again, but I'm being more careful about it and going for a higher skill level at the going rate. (Professional, $40 for one work).
If you think you can make more money creating another non-comic art form (and you can), I suggest you go do so. If you expect me to pay so much that I die... it's not going to happen. And, ironically, what I spent wouldn't have been but a single page from most of you.
Dark Horse pays about $65 per page (covers are free) for writing, coloring, lettering, flatting, pencilling, and . So, apparently, by the same logic as this post, artists think writers, colorists, flatters, and letterers are worthless because they ask $60 for a sketch. Writers can earn more money writing a novel and must put up some of this out of pocket (or all of it).
http://www.writers.ca/index.php/compone ... y-a-writer
Hmm... the thing is, I see a lot of terrible writing. And those of you saying 'Writing isn't that hard'. Of course it's not, if you're terrible, or you're a genius... which one are you? Based on the fact that you don't have your own novel and/or comic out, or are looking for another writer, I'm going to guess 'not genius'. Stop diminishing people to elevate yourself, even if others agree with you it accomplishes nothing. (And yes, pot, kettle). Yes, writing takes less time... if you don't actually bother to write everything (which a lot of writers don't).
It's a business. Supply exists, competition exists, demand exists. It pays what it pays, I don't set it. If you don't like it, break the monopoly that exists in the industry, shatter it to pieces, and redefine it.
if you don't like that go do something else or figure out a way to earn more. As near as I can tell, the top 'Indie' rate is $65 per page. Here, it's rather low comparatively. In Japan, however, you could become a millionaire. Why are you here? Why am I? Oh right, I don't speak Japanese.
Last edited by ArcTanGentleman on Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dbppres
if you cant pay an artist, then DONT bitch about the quality of art that is submitted for your approval. in other words, you get what you PAY FOR. if you aren't living on your own, then you have avenues of saving up, so if you want the good art, SAVE UP AGAIN, and quit trying to shortcut the creation process, and expect the same high-grade outcome.
here should be some suggestions for attaining some funds;
1. collect recyclables
2.do day labor
3. work under the table
so now you have these ideas to use, so NO MORE excuses, from ANY of you writers that read this, and claim poor.
here should be some suggestions for attaining some funds;
1. collect recyclables
2.do day labor
3. work under the table
so now you have these ideas to use, so NO MORE excuses, from ANY of you writers that read this, and claim poor.
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ld-airgrafix
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If i feel like the story is worth it, i might do back end pay or kickstarter, however most writers looking for an artist will just put up a title "looking for an artist" and not include a synopsis on what the book is about. I have applied for few of these only to reject them as they are a superman or batman ripoffs, or the writing is so bad (spelling mistakes and all).
So to all writers who dont offer money please write a short synopsis on what your book is about, you might get more artists applying.
So to all writers who dont offer money please write a short synopsis on what your book is about, you might get more artists applying.
lol omg
so i wasn't going to respond but i thought it was pretty hilarious that arctan completely deleted his old post and edited it to it's current state.
I know why, the other post was a combination of extremely a$$inine comments, condescending remarks (towards artists, and humanity in general...), and overall not very well written - ironic since you claim to be a writer. Perhaps that is the reason why you are not successful - not because 'you refuse to pay an artist with more than scraps like they deserve,' since you mentioned that professional writers barely pay artists - which is of course the way it should be right? So where do these uppity artists get asking unprofessional writers for HALF the money my god!
Now don't bother replying 'I didn't say that look at my post' because it -was- in your original post before you edited.
Also EVERYONE has unnecessary expenses. Everyone likes to think that they don't - that everything they do is necessary but it's not. Coffee, luxury food, recreational things, are all unnecessary. You can easily eat for a couple dollars a day in america by the way.
And don't you dare tell me a sob story about your sorry life that you couldn't afford an apartment because you paid an artist. Guess what, not only can that artist tell you a similar story about not being able to afford rent because they get nothing but offers from people who want to not pay them or underpay them - but this point is ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT. Why? because IF YOU WANT SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR IT.
You couldn't pay your rent? YOU'RE the one being irresponsible by buying art when you should be paying your rent! Why should i feel sorry for you? If someone came to me and said 'here, i'm paying you for the work you did with the 40$ I was going to buy my important prescription with and now i can't afford it,' should i go 'oh you know what that sounds super sad you just keep it'. No. I earned that damn money and i need that money. THEY needed to be responsible and not get someone to do work they couldn't pay for, I as the artist am not held liable for their stupid actions. And no artist is to be held liable for the stupid irresponsible actions of the writer, you included. Can't pay your rent? SO SAD, don't hire an artist.
Also in your other post you mentioned how many poor down on their luck talented writers are not employed right now. I do not believe this. I think there are lots of idiots who think they are talented writers who are unemployed. Most people who have any ability or talent whatsoever by this point have been published even if it's only in small stuff. Get over yourself.
Did this post sound super harsh? Maybe it's because i'm tired of whiny people whining about their poor life and how hard it is to get things done. Do you think life is only hard for you? Well it's not and somehow miraculously most of us people in the real world get over that and become successful by working hard, earning money, and accomplishing our dreams rather than sitting around and whining about it. It's hard to get much of anything done when you're whining.
I know why, the other post was a combination of extremely a$$inine comments, condescending remarks (towards artists, and humanity in general...), and overall not very well written - ironic since you claim to be a writer. Perhaps that is the reason why you are not successful - not because 'you refuse to pay an artist with more than scraps like they deserve,' since you mentioned that professional writers barely pay artists - which is of course the way it should be right? So where do these uppity artists get asking unprofessional writers for HALF the money my god!
Now don't bother replying 'I didn't say that look at my post' because it -was- in your original post before you edited.
Also EVERYONE has unnecessary expenses. Everyone likes to think that they don't - that everything they do is necessary but it's not. Coffee, luxury food, recreational things, are all unnecessary. You can easily eat for a couple dollars a day in america by the way.
And don't you dare tell me a sob story about your sorry life that you couldn't afford an apartment because you paid an artist. Guess what, not only can that artist tell you a similar story about not being able to afford rent because they get nothing but offers from people who want to not pay them or underpay them - but this point is ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT. Why? because IF YOU WANT SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR IT.
You couldn't pay your rent? YOU'RE the one being irresponsible by buying art when you should be paying your rent! Why should i feel sorry for you? If someone came to me and said 'here, i'm paying you for the work you did with the 40$ I was going to buy my important prescription with and now i can't afford it,' should i go 'oh you know what that sounds super sad you just keep it'. No. I earned that damn money and i need that money. THEY needed to be responsible and not get someone to do work they couldn't pay for, I as the artist am not held liable for their stupid actions. And no artist is to be held liable for the stupid irresponsible actions of the writer, you included. Can't pay your rent? SO SAD, don't hire an artist.
Also in your other post you mentioned how many poor down on their luck talented writers are not employed right now. I do not believe this. I think there are lots of idiots who think they are talented writers who are unemployed. Most people who have any ability or talent whatsoever by this point have been published even if it's only in small stuff. Get over yourself.
Did this post sound super harsh? Maybe it's because i'm tired of whiny people whining about their poor life and how hard it is to get things done. Do you think life is only hard for you? Well it's not and somehow miraculously most of us people in the real world get over that and become successful by working hard, earning money, and accomplishing our dreams rather than sitting around and whining about it. It's hard to get much of anything done when you're whining.
Oh.This.Planet.
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dbppres
Your future customers are hiring you, I'm merely providing a loan, which I risk 100% of(on my assumption that my idea is good), at or near the going rate of the art industry. Do I expect to make it back to you, no, I am extending that loan to your future customers, the ones who will buy the issue.
are you FREAKING KIDDING me? risking 100% of free(ideas)is still ZERO, what the hell kind of logic/reasoning are you using for your argument?
are you FREAKING KIDDING me? risking 100% of free(ideas)is still ZERO, what the hell kind of logic/reasoning are you using for your argument?
Again? Really
Are we really picking on those of us who simply don't have the means to provide compensation? Is it preferable to pay for artistic talent? YES! Should you be expected to shell out money if you're making below the poverty line and can't even afford to live on your own (My situation), my answer is that that situation is understandable. I will preach to the choir that if you have a steady job you should probably consider paying, but if you don't have the money I don't think you should be banned from trying to find a partner. I think people should be encouraged to pay as long as long it's in their means, and it is to their advantage because they're receive a more professional partner. Still, I feel there is a place in zwol for a young writer to find a developing artist to work on their first pieces.
-Ruyei
-Ruyei
No, you seem to not have read most of the pages here. This is what -is- happening.Are we really picking on those of us who simply don't have the means to provide compensation?
1. You as a writer are free to ask someone to work for free, no one can stop you from doing that.
-however you must realize that-
2. It is rude. If you went in to wal-mart and wanted to buy a movie and asked if you could have it for free - you can ask that, but it's rude and people will think you're ridiculous which you kind of are. Art is a service, it's a thing you're buying. It's rude to ask for something for free, but sure you can ask.
3. What people -are- picking on writers for is the fact that art is an optional expense. You don't -HAVE- to have it, and if you can't pay for it maybe you shouldn't buy it. It's kind of childish to say 'i want it but i can't pay for it so i want it for free', maybe you should wait until you can pay for it like adults do.
4. The excuses writers use to convince artists to work for free are complete bogus, the more experienced i get the more i realize how true this is. Stuff like 'use this in your portfolio'. Not everything an artist does is portfolio worthy (not even if you get paid for it) and especially not most of the stuff that would be done in here - especially because the content is controlled by the writer so god only knows if it's portfolio worthy or even any good. And experience might be better gained working with friends, teachers, taking art classes, or one's own projects not some random stranger online. And back end deals are not successful 99.9% of the time.
5. Perhaps the most disgusting aspect - writers use all of the above reasons and more to get artists to work for them for free but problem is they aren't using it on the 'bad' or 'new' artists so many writers claim to be talking about that 'aren't worth paying yet'. You writers do not want the new and bad artists who might or 'should' work for free - you want the great artists, the ones who -should- get paid or -are- getting paid. So most of these excuses are actually directed at the good artists who should get paid, and that is especially rude.
6. You're life story however sad and poverty stricken - is irrelevant. If you can't pay for good art then you don't get it, bottom line. The artist you're asking to work for you for free is also below the poverty line and has rent to pay. Should they work for you because you really want the art and just can't afford it? That's a pretty selfish thought. Are your needs more important than theirs?
7. Ego is the biggest concern here. As mentioned with the excuses above there is a fervent attempt to tell artists what they can gain out of working for free for a random untalented writer. In all honestly there really isn't much of anything. This is an unbalanced relationship because the biggest beneficiary is the writer and the person who is out the most (time and resources) is the artist. I think that a lot of writers cannot or choose not to see any of this from the artist's perspective. I understand you care a lot about your story and really want it to get done, but it shouldn't be at the expense of someone else's time and effort. Compensate them and it's a fair deal.
And developing artists are better off taking classes, working with teachers, and doing projects out of books rather than working on random pieces here especially because there is no quality control here, everyone is anonymous, and there isn't a lot of care for the artist. They're just a means to a writer's selfish goals on here the vast majority of the time.
Lastly before it's even brought up again there is never to be any talk of working 'with' an artist. If you didn't meet them in person or know them ahead of time or are friends with them they are more than likely working -for- you not -with- you. And saying you're equal is ridiculous. The writer has a vision they want accomplished and they essentially just want a person printer. :/
Oh.This.Planet.
Response
I may not have read every exact thing on this trend of discussion but I have read quite a lot, and I am aware of your view point. However, I see working with an artist as a collaboration of like minded individuals creating something together, not buying something at walmart. Do I come to the relationship saying "I have this idea and I want this done exactly like this."? Of course not. My intention when I make a post is more so to say, here are my ideas, but what I'm really offering is my services as a scripter, that I am to work with an artist to come up with something that we can both be passionate about doing. I sell myself as a scripter and say to the artist "Here's what I can do, what do you think?" I may not be perfect at communicating that, but hey, that's what I have in mind. I agree, expecting a one sided relationship in which the artist is like a puppet is ludicrous (unless you pay enough of course, and even then it's a little disreputable). I personally feel that, although many writers are misguided, that truthfully they want just to get their foot in the door. To use your walmart anology, you wouldn't buy a movie unless you saw some sort of teaser first right? A lot of the newbies have unrealistic expectations, I agree, but a lot of them just want to be apart of the creation process, and I can't fault them for wanting to try something new. Still, the sense I get for even many of the misguided ones is that they want to collaborate. They just don't know how to initiate that process yet is all. When someone does something wrong you don't just tell them to give up.
Ok, look I get it you have a beautiful romantic idealized vision of what the relationship between an artist and a writer is like.
The collaborating individuals relationship is fairly rare and typically only works between established friends or two well-known established professionals. For random people meeting online not so much.
Especially when a writer has an idea and story and seeks out an artist to draw it. There is already a power imbalance - the person directing it is the writer, the person with the dream is the writer, the person who believes in it the most is the writer.
I know it sounds wonderful to find someone to work for you who believes in you and your genius vision and works with you to accomplish your dream, but that's not reality.
I am a paid illustrator. As an artist you do have some creativity to exercise over projects and even bring ideas to the table. For the four books I have illustrated I got to suggest possible illustrations. However the bottom line was that the writer decided what they got to be. Power imbalance. There were many times where i felt that the writer had made a bad choice or that my idea would work better but it didn't matter. I would express concern but they wanted it their way and I was working -for- them not -with- them. You may say well you're being paid, true. But i've had this happen in non-paid situations as well. As least the plus in this situation was I got paid.
Writers are fairly uncompromising in their vision and fairly un-openminded. Even people who tend to think of themselves as open-minded aren't, in fact few people are truly open-minded. You may not directly come to the table saying 'i have this idea and i want this done exactly this way,' but you will reserve the right to put your foot down and say no to the artist every chance you get because it's ultimately your vision and if they do something that sways too much from that you won't like it.
And best of luck getting a stranger to believe strongly in your vision. It's been mentioned many times on here before but most artists would only work for someone else for pay. You know what I believe in? My own ideas, not yours, because they are mine. Most humans are like this (nothing wrong with it) but it's the reality. The only reason i would ever illustrate for anyone else is for pay. This beautiful narcissistic vision that some stranger is going to come to you and work for free because you're just such a genius and this story is just immaculate let me slap my beautiful time-consuming arts on it is utter garbage.
And hey maybe you're that 1/million writer who genuinely wants to collaborate but you're among the few, most want someone to do -their- story, not collaborate on something new (or at the very least clog the story with their ideas more than the other persons). And if they're open to any suggestions they are only open to small suggestions.
Sure everyone would like to get their foot in the door but not everyone should or can and nothing is wrong with that. More people want to be famous than are actually talented enough to be so.
Actually, i buy random stuff all the time without seeing a teaser...i'm not sure that analogy works. The main reason people buy things is because it peaks their interest in some way there doesn't need to be any prelude to it. I mean J.K. Rowling didn't get her 'foot in the door' she published Harry potter and then she was successful. Plus 'Foot in the door' implies that there is only one way to be successful and there isn't.
I disagree newbies don't just want to be 'apart of the creation process' or 'want to collaborate' that implies a level of humility that practically no newbies possess. Newbies do not want to be a part of something bigger they want to be the big thing - they want to be the next great american writer - famous and a genius hopefully without doing much of anything and quickly! They want to be the star and most of them want something for nothing. Most newbies really have no idea how to collaborate and working with other people who haven't or don't know how to collaborate isn't really going to help them...
This is all my opinion of course but it's based off of real life experiences not just an idealized vision of how beautiful the world could be. It sounds harsh but reality is harsh and it wastes time to beat around the bush. I can't even tell you how many failed collaborations I was apart of before I did theatre, there were so many. The vast majority occurred because of either people dropping out or a power imbalance due to an inability to collaborate and compromise.
The collaborating individuals relationship is fairly rare and typically only works between established friends or two well-known established professionals. For random people meeting online not so much.
Especially when a writer has an idea and story and seeks out an artist to draw it. There is already a power imbalance - the person directing it is the writer, the person with the dream is the writer, the person who believes in it the most is the writer.
I know it sounds wonderful to find someone to work for you who believes in you and your genius vision and works with you to accomplish your dream, but that's not reality.
I am a paid illustrator. As an artist you do have some creativity to exercise over projects and even bring ideas to the table. For the four books I have illustrated I got to suggest possible illustrations. However the bottom line was that the writer decided what they got to be. Power imbalance. There were many times where i felt that the writer had made a bad choice or that my idea would work better but it didn't matter. I would express concern but they wanted it their way and I was working -for- them not -with- them. You may say well you're being paid, true. But i've had this happen in non-paid situations as well. As least the plus in this situation was I got paid.
Writers are fairly uncompromising in their vision and fairly un-openminded. Even people who tend to think of themselves as open-minded aren't, in fact few people are truly open-minded. You may not directly come to the table saying 'i have this idea and i want this done exactly this way,' but you will reserve the right to put your foot down and say no to the artist every chance you get because it's ultimately your vision and if they do something that sways too much from that you won't like it.
And best of luck getting a stranger to believe strongly in your vision. It's been mentioned many times on here before but most artists would only work for someone else for pay. You know what I believe in? My own ideas, not yours, because they are mine. Most humans are like this (nothing wrong with it) but it's the reality. The only reason i would ever illustrate for anyone else is for pay. This beautiful narcissistic vision that some stranger is going to come to you and work for free because you're just such a genius and this story is just immaculate let me slap my beautiful time-consuming arts on it is utter garbage.
And hey maybe you're that 1/million writer who genuinely wants to collaborate but you're among the few, most want someone to do -their- story, not collaborate on something new (or at the very least clog the story with their ideas more than the other persons). And if they're open to any suggestions they are only open to small suggestions.
Sure everyone would like to get their foot in the door but not everyone should or can and nothing is wrong with that. More people want to be famous than are actually talented enough to be so.
Actually, i buy random stuff all the time without seeing a teaser...i'm not sure that analogy works. The main reason people buy things is because it peaks their interest in some way there doesn't need to be any prelude to it. I mean J.K. Rowling didn't get her 'foot in the door' she published Harry potter and then she was successful. Plus 'Foot in the door' implies that there is only one way to be successful and there isn't.
I disagree newbies don't just want to be 'apart of the creation process' or 'want to collaborate' that implies a level of humility that practically no newbies possess. Newbies do not want to be a part of something bigger they want to be the big thing - they want to be the next great american writer - famous and a genius hopefully without doing much of anything and quickly! They want to be the star and most of them want something for nothing. Most newbies really have no idea how to collaborate and working with other people who haven't or don't know how to collaborate isn't really going to help them...
This is all my opinion of course but it's based off of real life experiences not just an idealized vision of how beautiful the world could be. It sounds harsh but reality is harsh and it wastes time to beat around the bush. I can't even tell you how many failed collaborations I was apart of before I did theatre, there were so many. The vast majority occurred because of either people dropping out or a power imbalance due to an inability to collaborate and compromise.
Oh.This.Planet.
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jj robinson
- Forum Member
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:14 am
- Location: united kingdom
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dbppres
a couple of years ive been gone, and im STILL seeing TOO MANY writers wanting projects for FREE. its getting sickening to see, again.
let me ask you writers HONESTLY, unless you're getting your food/clothing from charity organizations on a sole basis, which more than likely isn't true, HOW are you able to access the internet, and submit your samples?
STOP asking for FREE artwork, at a high-grade level, unless you PAY for it.
let me ask you writers HONESTLY, unless you're getting your food/clothing from charity organizations on a sole basis, which more than likely isn't true, HOW are you able to access the internet, and submit your samples?
STOP asking for FREE artwork, at a high-grade level, unless you PAY for it.