why is $10/pg too much for you writers?

[dbppres]

seriously, folks. if you're not willing to risk 10.00 a page, then how much do you really believe in your project? it's not that much to spend, and it should get things done faster, folks.

[JB]

For a vanity project, that dream that you fear may never lead anywhere it isn't. In fact $10 per page is probably on the cheap end (I come from the RPG world where a full page, B&W might cost upwards of $80 and a full color cover might cost around $500). For pitches, where the hope is to turn them into a graphic novel or ongoing series, $10 per page is tough to swollow. For your average pitch your looking at $50-80 with no idea on if it will be accepted anywhere. Tack on to that the price of making your pitch presentable and mailing it out to all the houses that might be interested, and your looking at $90-150. Thats for one pitch. Every writer out there hopes to get their first pitch picked up but more than likely we are going to throw a dozen or more pitches before something real happens. It may never happen. Lets be generous and say that your art elevates the chances of a pitch landing to one out of six. That is still about $720 (on average) that our spouses are wondering where it went.

That isn't the real problem. If I, poor scraping bastard that I am, really put my mind to it, I could save ~$700 over the next year while amassing the best scripts I possibly can. That would be about six solid pitches over the next two years which may or may not net me a novel or series. But I'm in to that series or novel with an artist who does not believe in the project. I'm in with someone who isn't reaching in the same direction as me, for the stars. I'm in with someone who is content to accept an admittedly low fee rather than pushing forward in the hopes of so much more. The real problem isn't the money. The real problem is the passion.

[dbppres]

well, if an artist is real about the passion, then would do it, pretty much for either a higher or lower page rate. if they're not, then yeah, a writer has to expect to pay out the nos for artwork.

[JB]

Which is why very few writers are willing to pay up front. We want your top game for a submission, not what you are willing to pound out for $10 a page. We want to know that you are as invested in this projects success as we are. If I want to see my scripts turned into art badly enough then it is totally worth paying $10 or more per page. But if my goal is to be picked up and published then I need to know that the artist I'm working with has the same goal. How do I know that he or she shares that goal? Because they are waiting on the same payout that I am.

[JB]

What about a deal like this, 50/50 split on success or $10 per page to keep as a part of the writer's portfolio? I agree that artists deserve to get paid. I also believe that asking an artist to work for $10 per page on a published book is insane! They should be making a lot more than that! But if the pitch flops they should still get paid.

[dbppres]

believe it or not, JB. i do bring my best game, whether i got paid or not. it's a matter of integrity for me. if an artist won't do it for a matter of true artistic passion, then they need to be told to buzz off.

[JB]

I do believe you but I'm sure not every artist is that way. Just out of curiosity, do you expect the same sort (likely higher) page rate once the book is picked up? Or do you then want to go in half way as part owner of the book?

[dbppres]

i'd expect 50/50 as a fair split, for a continue project, if i jumped onto a back-end deal. otherwise, AT LEAST 5.00/pg is what i would ask for. however, i have to make it clear, that i don't do inking(unsteady hand on tiny details) or coloring(coloring software frustrates me).

[damonsmithart]

on average a page should take around 8 hours of work. from layout to finish. and that is just pencils. i am a penciller like yourself but that does not mean you settle for less because you cannot color or ink. pencils are the hardest part of the page. you must create everything from words. for this you should get paid properly. if you are asking for $5-$10 a page you are saying your hourly rate is around $1.50.. bums make more then that on the side of freeways. i am not saying that 5-10 is bad because its better then free but honestly if you have faith in your work and time then you should let that be known. creating art is not something that should be taken lightly. that's like me saying i want a tech to come in my home and install a surround sound home theater system and throw in a tv for free or $10.. not gonna happen right? so why would art be any different. for all writers out there it will help so much more if your willing to even pay $20 a page which is still low. pay for quality guys. not only will you get a dedicated artist that will push out pages daily but you will get a lot done. i have worked for free many times. on all the free projects i have worked on there has been no real push but self motivation. when you know you will receive something for your hard work you will make sure to get it done properly. all im trying to say is don't sell yourself short and writers don't expect to get Jim Lee to work for free.. if you want a real chance at getting your story seen then you must be willing to help more then just saying "hey i wrote this story draw it and if its a hit we both get paid" because that doesn't sound to promising what so ever.

[Bocasean]

Most writers don't understand the costs involved with getting a finished book into the hands of readers, even IF it's high quality. There is VERY little money on the back end, if any profit at all.

Because of this, artists are very unlikely to work for free.

[JB]

I just realized that art in comics is like editing in other forms of writing. You pay for it because no one wants to read it otherwise.

I was having trouble justifying spending money on another's art just to be able to show off my own "art". Then I realized that I do that already. I pay an editor to make my writing make sense for my target audience. In this case, my audience expects my ideas to be presented in wonderful pictures. That isn't something I can do for myself so I pay to have someone else deal with making it acceptable to the target audience.

Where this breaks down is after a pitch gets picked up. How am I suppose to look at an artist who held me up for money to show me the way into the city and say, "Hey, want to come in with me?", much less, "Hey, want to become my buisness partner? I'll pay you half!". If a pitch gets picked up and an artist charged me page rates to get it there then they should enjoy those page rates through the run.

[JB]

It seems that you don't understand the work, effort, and money that go into producing a pitchable script, finding and organizing the artists to bring that script to life, package it all in a professional maner all with no pay whatsoever. Artist's time has value, writer's time seems to have no value. Thats an issue.

[Bocasean]

It's not that scripts have no value...it's simply a matter of supply and demand. For every good artist, there are at least 20 scripts waiting to be drawn. The only way to separate from the pack is to be willing to pay for it.

That said, when I pay for artwork, I maintain control of the art direction and ownership. Some artists don't like that style, but it's how I work. The key is to find an agreement that BOTH sides enjoy and can profit from, whether monetarily or through exposure.

[damonsmithart]

this is very true but if a story does get picked up most company's want the same artist that was in the pitch. because of this simple fact the artist will have more value. there was something about the harmony between writer and artist that made the publisher want to back them and they do not want to see a new artist when you start the project. it must be consistent until your story/characters can stand alone and sell themselves. a great deal of comics are sold because of the artist and writers name behind it. so with that said once the story gets backed then the artist should start a higher page rate due to the fact that he/she was a huge factor in being picked up in the first place. what it sounds like your saying is that the artist should still get 20 a page while the writer gets the profits which is extremely wrong. your story gets picked so that means you will receive the money you need to pay your artist the rates they deserve while you still make money. the only way this would work is if you started a page rate that was of a realistic level ($60-$90) from the beginning but you can not expect for a artist to work hard for cheap through a whole series its not going to happen. there is no way i as a artist would allow a writer to pay me $20 a page then once we get paid continue that low price. that's still only $2.50 an hour. you have to be realistic. starting rates for the common artist now in the industry with no credit at all is $100-175 a page. if you have an artist (which by the time you get picked up should be a friend to you) it is only right to pay them more. don't make the mistake of thinking they are holding you up for money just because they expect pay for the hard work they do.

[JB]

Of course you are right and, reading what I wrote, I misspoke. An artist does deserve a better page rate once the comic has been picked up, beyond being reasonable it is only decent. Add to that the fact that with every issue they are helping you sell more comics (hopefully) and that makes complete sense. My first eight page comic is a total vanity project for me. I'm talking to an artist now that I expect will charge in the $90+ range per page and I'm glad to pay it (she is freaking amazing). But as I'm getting serious about writing pitches I'm also taking a serious look at my limited funds. I think the solution of offering either page rates or IP share sounds reasonable if a bit daunting.

Thank you all for not hitting me over the head like a troll while I struggled with this.

[damonsmithart]

we all need help and are in this together. whats the use of knowledge if you refuse to share it..? if you don't mind me asking do you think i could see some of her work?

[JB]

I think part of my issue comes from working in games. There I'm working on 1/8th 1/4er and 1/2 page rates and maybe as many as a dozen such pieces in one product. Paying those prices for full pages seems more than a little daunting. I've also been hearing the "If you don't believe in your art enough to support it yourself" strawman a lot over on the boardgame and RPG side of Kickstarter and it tends to rile me up

Part of my problem is that this is a craft I can't complete on my own and put up for free which is how I made a name for myself before. Here I need another creative's help to call even one page "done".

I'll ask her if she minds me spreading her name around as my project is the first comic project she has done. She typically does RPG art so this is a bit of a stretch for both of us

[El Dragen]

Just to be clear. You're talking about paying a writer 10 dollars a page to write a script?

[El Dragen]

Because if it is, sign me up!

[mikekennedy]

i guess i really comes down to whether its a collaboration or not as i have income from 7 page one offs that i won't see again but on the other hand there are 7 page submissions that i'm doing for free in the hope of future payment mainly because its a collaboration both plot wise and art wise.

if that makes any sense....

[dbppres]

look, if an artist doesn't have a published credit to their name, then anything above 20/pg is too much of a burden, for the risk of a high-rejection rate. sorry if that bothers artists, but to me, that's fair.

about the art direction control, i totally agree with that POV, because as i've said on other threads, a writer's proiject should be left intact, out of respect for their vision, moreso if the writer is paying for it to be drawn out.

[Feonex]

10/page is not a bad price but at least for me it comes down to the fact that if your paying one member of your team then its not much of a partnership. Then the artist takes no real risk because regardless they still get paid. I've seen comics where the artist was only given 5-10 dollars a page but they clearly gave it everything they could. But, 10 dollars a page is still starving wages. For an artist to actually make any real money they would have to do 3000 pages a year which would a little under 10 pages a day. I don't think too many just starting artists are capable of producing 10 pages a day of quality artwork. So if your pay 10 dollars a page for someones full time job I would of course question how much they are really giving you for that 10 dollars. In a perfect scenario I think you spit the profits the comic should ever make 50/50. Writing and drawing both take a different skill set. These separate skill sets is what makes comics so enjoyable to read. You could get to see someones vision of anothers idea.

[Rob Lefebvre]

I think one thing that was not touched on at all here is the work the writer puts into it. Not only must I spend huge ammounts of time an effort writing a script, but I must also fund the project out of pocket with and ungodly slim chance of making that money back. Than I am expected to sell the comic in a market where no one is taking risks on new writers and artists. All that while I am supporting my self and my wife and have a kid on the way. $10 a page for a 22 page comic = 220 plus cover fee. Keep in mind very few places even look to publish floppy comics right now, so to get something published you are looking at a graphic novel. 100 pages = a grand. Plus you have to pay someone to do the inks, and the letters, and possibly the colors.

I agree that artists do a lot of work, an honestly in my experience good artists are worth way more than $10 a page. Standard is between $75 and $125 (depending on who you talk to you) for a reason. The fact is both writers and artists deserve to get paid, when I pay a page rate the artsit is guaranteed at least some pay, I, as the writer, am the one who is not.

If you guys really want to make this change, than stop buying comics from Marvel and DC and Darkhorse and start buying from indie publishers. Indie publishr are the ones taking chances on new writers and artists, not the big names. Also if we support indie comics, maybe we will get something other than a thousand superhero comics lining the shelves. Another thing you can all do to try and support a more lucrative comics trade for all, is go on kickstarter and idie go go and do some funding of projects. If we all gave a dollar a month that wil eventually come back to artists via page rates.

Last thing. If you posted an ad on here that says "Artist looking for writer $10 a page" you will get an enormous amount of hits and responses. If you put "Artist looking for work" and do not post a page rate, I am left to guess at your prices. If you are a good artist I am thiking 50 minimum, can't afford it, and I will move along.

Comics are a hard industry. It is important for writers to know that artists earn every penny, and deserve fair pay for whta they do. It is important for artists to know that writers also do a lot of work and feel a lot of pressure. Just throwing in my two cents.

[Bocasean]

I agree with most of what you're saying, Rob, especially the item about having artists post their page rates.

But the fact of the matter is still mathematical; there are DOZENS of writers for every DECENT artist. The ratio is even more out of whack when it comes to truly gifted artists. Because of the supply/demand differential, the amount of work that a writer must put in is almost irrelevant, simply because the artists know that there are 10 more writers waiting in the wings.

I'm not saying it's fair. It's just the way it is.