Zwol.org

I've seen many comic artists on this page wanting $40 per page.
http://www.jimzub.com/?p=1953
Note: I haven't actually seen anyone hire them... but I've seen a lot of people asking. Actually, based on this 'success' story that's impossible. The author gives speeches, and is invited to talk about his success. And yet he... the team... as a whole makes less than what many artists on this forum ask for.

I ask you, if a successful comic cannot afford to hire the artists on this forum.. are people's expectations wrong?

Worse yet, that's how much they'd get if they got 100%. Remember, there's also the Inker, the Letterer, and the Writer to pay. Admittedly, this isn't factoring in digital sales. But even factoring in digital sales.

Some writers I've seen aren't actually targeting a profit. They're doing it fot the 'sake of the art' never intending to make a dime. So, what then? The artist, in spite of owning half the work, works for free or at a steep discount... not only hoping that the comic will be successful.

You can earn an artist... but if he's working for free/cheap and doesn't feel like doing something, what recourse do you have? Honestly, in such a situation I usually laugh and let the other party tank the comic. (It is, after all, his own success he's destroying.) If he's a pro and you're not. (There is a reason many pro's don't succeed on their own.)

Then there's the dilution of rights to multiple parties that limits the end work to what they can all agree on. (Read up on the 'League of Nations' sometime). It's no wonder that the few to succeed (and make no mistake, there are very FEW at the top) are the ones who work for major companies OR the ones who can BOTH write and draw.

Also, one small question, a lot of indie comics seem to use a black background panel. Has anyone bothered to analyze the average profit margins of comics with a specific style of background? (Black vs. Black line with white gap?)

The thing is, a lot of comics seem to be closing. It's no wonder some companies own so many characters. Just wait until they go broke and buy em up! In fact, it seems fairly common for a comic book publisher to close doors and (potentially) lose rights.

And if they succeed, since they are constantly under the threat of imminent doom, their best economic bet is to sell out. And then this happens.
http://www.avclub.com/articles/marvel-f ... g-h,69202/
By the way, he almost lost his house because SOMEONE hit him with 17000 dollars in debt for... yeah...
http://news.moviefone.com/eric-larnick/ ... 82549.html
His level of complete ownership is debated by...

Unfortunately, there aren't accurate records from forty years ago, so it's a mater of hearsay.

But, this thread isn't to deal with 'ghost rider' (If you want to do that, please start another one.) I just wanted to point out the many possible consequences.

I've got to go, work, more later.

Basically, the economics are painful. Artists who work on 'creator owned' works seem to net less, even as a success, than they are asking. It makes sense, the lowest paid person at a restaurant nearby is the owner.

This space reserved.

I'm not from the biz, but I've heard stories myself about writer's getting the shaft as well in the comic industry. And besides, it's harder to break in as a writer. For one thing there's more of us. And for another writing is a useless craft that it's very hard to get a job out of. Artists at least can dabble in graphic design work of some sort but writer's really only have journalism and even that is competitive. Too bad I have no interest in journalism. So therefore the only thing left is editing, which is also competitive so I'm not going to bother too much with that.

Yes I am a writer who "writes for the hell of it". But considering how competitive the field is, is there really an option? Sure I'd love a job doing comic scripting as a living but I'm more-so focused on getting a good work done and submitting afterward. Anyway, I see plenty of writers advertising on this forum talking about submitting to publishers, so it's not like the artists are the only ones who want to get published! I myself want it bad. Especially recently I've been quite dedicated to the craft working on multiple projects, mostly short ones since those are easier on the artists. I myself find myself working with artists who are just working on comics for the fun of it too, those exist too you know.

But I do tend to agree, artists seem to want it more than writers do, probably because it's more work to become a skilled artist then to become what passes as writing skill around here. Maybe I'm just guessing, but from what I see from a lot of writer looking artist posts around here are simply "This is my first time doing this but I still want to work on a comic" posts. Artists in contrast are usually those with a fair amount of skill under their belts from what I've seen. Now I'm sounding hypocritical, I started with a similar post myself. But writers should realize that instead of filling in plenty of requirements for artists and storylines is that at least when you're starting out you should offer yourself to whatever artist wants to take you. Sure writing a comic seemed easy for me too when I was just starting out, but experience really does a lot! Even as an experienced writer I still cater to the artist a lot, offering multiple projects to chose from and oftentimes working on an artist's own pet project. But I have to say, I'm never at a loss for work these days. It's experience and proof of it that does it really, and I'd recommend that any writer looking to get started writing comics get desperate in looking for comic work. My first gig was prettying up text for a third language English speaker! Also remember writers, a good starting gig might just be with a less than professional artist. Keep at it though, I know I myself greatly enjoy comiking.

Wow, I went from defending writers to baring their flaws for all to see! Anyway, I see writer's and artists as left to rot by society. There really is no money on average to becoming an artist or writer from what I've seen. It scares me personally that business is what makes the big bucks. And what is "business" but manipulating people to shell out more money. I look forward to the day (and I'm sure it'll come) where the cost of living will become so low that artists and writers can subsist as they make their masterworks and develop their craft. The net really is key. Writers can publish books without printing them, artists can post artwork without wasting canvas, and moviemakers can have an easy outlet for their massive testaments to collaboration. Sure art isn't a necessary thing for society for run but I think it makes life more bearable for both the creator and the audience. Kickstarter is also an amazing things, all these start-up dreams.

So artists and writers keep at it! We're all suffering at the bottom of society these days, it really makes me sad to see artists saying writers are shit and writers saying that they're more important. Both are essential! Though I personally feel that artists should get more respect since it takes longer to draw than it does to write, but both fields really should get props. In fact writers get a LOT of shit on here. I've seen quite a few artists say that writing is shit compared to the power of artwork. Truthfully both crafts can stand on their own, but the stories we can tell together are awe-inspiring. I understand many artists are griping because they can't get compensation for their work, but we writers pretty much NEVER get any money our way because we're less in demand. As much as I think artists should get respect, the amount of griping about writers not paying enough always offends me. We writers are spending our spare time writing for free, and often for a negative drain on our finances. We're not customers, we're workers just like you who just happen to have enough passion and enthusiasm to want to pay to see our stories painted in great visuals. I admit that one of the reasons we're not respected on the net too much is because of something I mentioned, a lot of first time writers. But we're dreammakers too.

One of the scariest things I see though is writers and artists dropping out of projects and leaving their partners in the dark. I know writers and artists speak a lot about writer's and artist's block and not enough free time, but truthfully we both should learn to know ourselves a little better so we don't promise a partnership and then have to back out.

Well that's my say, sorry to rant. All in all, we should understand that it's not really writer vs artist or vice versa. We all need to learn to work together and respect each other, I see way too much hate on these forums. We're dreamakers all of us, even those who still have a ways to grow.

Sincerely
Ruyei

Hmm.... having what I'm replying to in the document would be nice, this forum is very poorly organized.