why is $10/pg too much for you writers?

[lizardfolk]

I'm going to sound like a malcontent who doesn't appreciate artists with another "writers deserve to get paid as much as artists" complaint but please hear me out.

There is a very unfortunate bias amongst our entertainment industry (I'm speaking about visual storytelling entertainment/art in general such as ) that the visual is inherently worth more than the written word. This really isn't the fault of one person or the fault of the industry.

Think about it. Let's say you are a good artist with pretty decent talent. You draw one picture, and people would look at it and go "wow". Even if the picture is relatively easy for you to draw and someone like Joseph Michael Linsner can really put you to shame (JML puts a lot of people to shame so it's no big deal ). But a good picture looks amazing even if that picture has technical flaws here and there. (After all... Rob Liefeld is an industry artist..)


Ok... now lets take a writer. Most people (including aspiring writers themselves) have the unfortunate sentiment that anyone who can speak english can write. That's probably why you have millions of writers fighting to grab one decent artist.

History:
But what qualifications do each writer have? Even if they have some projects done and some writing samples. Did they study creative writing in school? If not did they read theory papers and books about creative writing?

Fiction Theory:
Is that writer knowledgeable on fiction theory (many good writers do btw). Does the writer know what fiction theorists Roland Barthes's system of five major codes are? If so do they know how to utilize it to analyze their own writing?

Is the writer a "structuralist"? Or does the writer believe that "structuralism" has no place in fiction? Does the writer know who Robert McKee is or Syd Field or Scott McCloud? Does the writer follow the dramatic movement of Modernism? Or Post-Modernism? What's the difference between Pastiche and Parody?

What's the difference between the The Actual versus The Fictive? Is there a difference? Should there be a difference? Should they be as different as possible?

Does the writer understand 3 act structure? What about 2 act structure and when it's appropriate? Or the 4-5 act structure?

Dialogue:
What's the difference between Dramatic dialogue and Realistic Dialogue? BTW comic books tend to lean towards the dramatic side of dialogue. Is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing?

Does the writer know how to avoid writing too much expository dialogue? Does the writer understand subtext? Does the writer understand beats within a script? Does the writer understand theme? Does the writer know how to work in theme without being heavy handed or too obvious? (this even industry people have problems with btw).


This is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the writing craft. But you wanna know what the kicker is? This is so completely unseen by most people. Yet they appreciate it without knowing exactly why.

When a picture is well drawn it's easy for people to appreciate it. It looks cool. It just looks cool. When a story is so well written, and people get touched, they don't necessarily understand or know exactly why they touched. There's nothing tangible about a good story while a good picture is very very tangible.

There's also the problem of people putting in too much of their own bias when judging writing. Many comic book fans love high concept stuff with lotsa action. Even if that means the story would be contrived, they look past that because the scenarios and visuals are just "cool". What about lower concept stuff? Stuff that replaces action with character development? What about a story that doesn't involve saving the world at all and it's about a character's own personal crisis? See, not only do you have be mindful of the writing to enjoy it, you have to even work towards it. Constantly thinking about it during and after the experience and it becomes rewarding.


So... if writing is so esoteric. Then why bother? Because writing is the meat and foundation of fiction. Comic books need great visuals. And it technically doesn't need great writing to sell or be published. But, if you want to stand out from the crowd. Find a writer that can actually push the visuals beyond just merely being a picture collage.


Think about it.

How long does it take to appreciate the work of Joseph Michael Linsner? How long does it take to appreciate the work of Aaron Sorkin from just reading a 120 page script?

[Bocasean]

Yes, and the ONLY way that writers with the above mentioned skills can SHOWCASE their abilities is to have their comics created to a level that people will actually want to read them.

They do that by paying an artist.

AFTER they have proven that they have the abilities you mention, THEN they have separated themselves from the pack and can begin to collect the payment that you're talking about.

Put another way, if I showed up on this forum and said "Hey, I am publishing a book that Mark Waid is writing (or Kurt Busiek or Stan Lee, whatevs), but I can't pay the artist until the book makes profit...."

I GUARANTEE you that I could find 100 artists - all of whom would be professional and high quality - to draw that book for me.

Until a writer has SHOWN that they can craft a comic book that someone wants to read, their credentials are meaningless. For better or worse, the only way to showcase their abilities, at this point in time, is to pay an artist upfront to draw their script.

[BeauWright]

A lot of writers seem to be under the impression that artist aren't story tellers themselves. Like we just draw pretty pictures and go about our way. Even live action film have story boards. You have to write, then an artist has to go behind you, interpret everything, make it visually stunning and also a cohesive narrative. Why are you paying? Because you can't do it, and no one wants you. Any artist can send in samples to Dark horse, Image, and DC and get a job. A good artist doesn't need a writer. It doesn't matter. But you need a good artist.

Face it, most comic books have shit writing, even Grant Morrison is on his Freshman year, second semester art school stuff half the time. So if those are the professionals, how good are you? You're not as good as you think you are, but an artist knows exactly how good they are. For 14 years out of 19 I've been drawing, and I'm good. I'm aware of exactly how good I am. I'm no Rivera, but I can throw down and it took years. And most of you are probably grown men, just starting out in your dreams of writing, expecting a good artist to spend 5 hours a page on your dream for nothing? After entire lives spent on art? Nope.

I know I'm worth money because i have the mind of a sequential artist and i'm a damn good draftsman, I won't let anyone under cut 14/19 of my life because they didn't put the effort into theirs.

TL;DR: LEARN TO DRAW.

[lizardfolk]

Yes, and the ONLY way that writers with the above mentioned skills can SHOWCASE their abilities is to have their comics created to a level that people will actually want to read them.

They do that by paying an artist.

AFTER they have proven that they have the abilities you mention, THEN they have separated themselves from the pack and can begin to collect the payment that you're talking about.

Put another way, if I showed up on this forum and said "Hey, I am publishing a book that Mark Waid is writing (or Kurt Busiek or Stan Lee, whatevs), but I can't pay the artist until the book makes profit...."

I GUARANTEE you that I could find 100 artists - all of whom would be professional and high quality - to draw that book for me.

Until a writer has SHOWN that they can craft a comic book that someone wants to read, their credentials are meaningless. For better or worse, the only way to showcase their abilities, at this point in time, is to pay an artist upfront to draw their script.

Indeed, in the perfect world, a writer can write a good script and that script alone would garner attention due to it's quality. But I disagree that a no-name can't possibly be good unless they have credits.

I agree that the best way to showcase their abilities is to pay an artist upfront and just bite the bullet and get a book out. But, theoretically, a great story should be compensated. Aaron Sorkin's scripts aren't any less good just because their scripts and not an actual product. If comic, tv, and movie industries have that attitude then nothing would be shelved for production and writers and scripts would be disposable.

A lot of writers seem to be under the impression that artist aren't story tellers themselves. Like we just draw pretty pictures and go about our way.

Actually, artists who think they can write Hemingway material usually find themselves in trouble. Look at the anime industry. So many projects go down the drain because the artist has the creative freedom with the story and script over the writer.

Perfect example, Ghost in the Shell. There's so many instance where sequences were shoved in just to show off the talent of the artist. But it made for a very poorly paced film and long segments that became either contrived or useless from a dramatic standpoint.

I'm not saying that artists are idiots. Most of them are very savvy people. But, imo, reading comic books and thinking "I WANNA DO THAT" can only go so far. You need to work to learn to draw. Well you need to work a lot more than learning english to write a dramatically valuable story.

Are we creating art here or not?

Even live action film have story boards. You have to write, then an artist has to go behind you, interpret everything, make it visually stunning and also a cohesive narrative.

Actually in the world of live action films the artist is pretty disposable. The director usually draws the storyboard (horribly might I add) but as long as the director can communicate what he's thinking to other people that's enough.

Have you seen Martin Scorsese's storyboards? They are horribly drawn and barely coherent. Didn't stop him from making masterful films from his or someone else's script.

Try doing that with a poor script...

Why are you paying? Because you can't do it, and no one wants you. Any artist can send in samples to Dark horse, Image, and DC and get a job. A good artist doesn't need a writer. It doesn't matter. But you need a good artist.

That is actually true. We are paying because we can't do it. But then again... why are artists looking for a writer? And if you can crack into the industry why don't you do it now?

Then again, it really depends on your motivation for creating comic books or stories or whatever. Do you want to create entertainment or create art? As a theorist (and yes I've worked as a theorists and gotten published... not that creative people outside the academia really cares... or the industry for that matter... ) I find the entire idea that you want to create something just to get noticed and sell or get a job to be a little counterproductive to the entire idea of art.

Sure, art needs money and without money art wouldn't exist and you can theoretically get by (and sell... depending on your marketing and concept) with creating poorly written and dramatically uninteresting stories.

But if you had to increase your portfolio, or submit projects for a studio. Wouldn't you rather do it with a story that actually has a large amount of creative merit over some sloppy poorly pasted together pastiche of past comic books?

If you think crafting stories, dialogue, and characters that would rival the likes of Aaron Sorkin or David Mamet is easy and no big deal then go ahead... do it. I would challenge any artists who doesn't have creative writing training (or atleast somewhat knows the fiction theory) to do so.

Face it, most comic books have shit writing, even Grant Morrison is on his Freshman year, second semester art school stuff half the time. So if those are the professionals, how good are you? You're not as good as you think you are, but an artist knows exactly how good they are.

See that's a blanket generalization that's a little unfair. So Grant Morrison couldn't do better so that means every writer who aren't professionals (yet) have to be worse right?

Maybe this is why the comic industry's suffering from poor writing in general because this attitude is absolutely detrimental.

Look at the film industry. Looking away from the mainstream. Look at Sundance films, Finger Lakes Film Festival films, European drama films made with only 1k budget with actors and crew basically getting paid just enough to eat for that day.

How many amazing movies have been created on a minimal to no budget and impacted the film industry in ways that previous generations could have never imagined?

For 14 years out of 19 I've been drawing, and I'm good. I'm aware of exactly how good I am. I'm no Rivera, but I can throw down and it took years. And most of you are probably grown men, just starting out in your dreams of writing, expecting a good artist to spend 5 hours a page on your dream for nothing? After entire lives spent on art? Nope.

Actually that depends on the writer... me? Just starting out my dreams of writing? Umm... no? Went to college and double majored in creative writing and cinema production in New York. Took summer school classes in Fiction Theory, went through countless script workshops (both film and comics).

Spent 4 months working as an intern for an independant production company as a script reader and story editor... I was the first line of defense for that company basically screening out scripts for them. (They only gave me that position due to my school credentials and my writing sample).

I started super late when it comes to writing... I basically started writing when I first stepped foot in college. Most of my peers (they are film people...) were writing since high school and already been reading theorists like Andre Bazin, Sergei Eisenstein and Christian Metz before college. They are very very dramatically sharp people. Can you compete against people like us if you have no training? You might say it doesnt matter because we can't get a book out.

Hey, if you truly believe you don't need people like that. By all means try to write your own script.

If a script isn't good, the comic isn't worth being drawn. If the script isn't good and the comic was published anyway, then the only thing it's worth is just visual eye candy and maybe some shallow monetary gain. But it would mean jack all to the medium and to art.

Transformers 3 made billions of dollars. It made no positive impact whatsoever on the field and medium of film. In fact, if anything, it made film regress as an art form.

I know I'm worth money because i have the mind of a sequential artist and i'm a damn good draftsman, I won't let anyone under cut 14/19 of my life because they didn't put the effort into theirs.

Hey, I'm worth the money too. But the difference is, no one would believe me if I gave them a 120 page movie script that I can write... All you have to do is post a cool picture for people like us to beg

[Bocasean]

I never said that a no-name writer can't be good. I said that it is irrelevant whether or not a no-name writer is good, because no one will believe them until they put a finished product into their hands. All acclaimed writer's were no-names at some point, but they were likely always good.

[Rob Lefebvre]

Here is the deal. Both writers an artist are equally important to making GOOD comics. Any idiot can pay an artist a lot of money to draw a poorly written comic, and any artist can write up a terrible story. The fact is it takes a lot of work to be a really good comic book writer. Both work extremely hard and deserve to make godd money doing the work they do.

Why is it that the writer should take all of the monetary risk? No one sits down and just writes up a great first draft. It takes a lot of hard work, and a lot of time, and very few people can do it well. There are probably 10 - 1 wroters vs artist, but if you made a statistic for GOOD writers to GOOD artist the ratio would be a lot different. Why is it fair to ask a writer to pay a page rate for a good artist and not the other way around?

Fact is no artist is gonna make money without a writer. No one is buying a book of doodles. Same is said of a writer. Best way to think of it is this: Everyone is trying the best they can. If a writer can't pay, assume it is because he does not have the funds. If that doesn't work for you, than start buying indies comics and supporting people on kickstarter, because until that happens on a mass level, most wrtiers do not have much money.

[mikekennedy]

look, if an artist doesn't have a published credit to their name, then anything above 20/pg is too much of a burden, for the risk of a high-rejection rate. sorry if that bothers artists, but to me, that's fair.

about the art direction control, i totally agree with that POV, because as i've said on other threads, a writer's proiject should be left intact, out of respect for their vision, moreso if the writer is paying for it to be drawn out.

completely agree with the un-published artist thing especially as 20/pg seems alot to me,probably because i'm a student.either way, many writers are strict with their "vision" but in many cases an artist is there to improve it aesthetically and on a writing basis.
i can't speak for any other artists but if a script has something that i could help on or suggest change to,i'll say it.in a way it improves the relationship if everyones on the same wavelength and appreciates what they can bring to the table.
but i'd never try to be too domineering.

[J J ROBINSON]

SUCH PASSION YOU UNLEASH MY BOYS!!!!!

I truly envy your girlfriends/boyfriends/wives/husbands/significant others/one night stands /house hold inanimate or animate objects/pets or gym socks, if that's the level of commitment and pure unbridled passion you all show in the bedroom this weekend....god bless us, one and all

oh...and for my humble ten penneth worth...."Potato potahto"

[BeauWright]

Actually, artists who think they can write Hemingway material usually find themselves in trouble. Look at the anime industry. So many projects go down the drain because the artist has the creative freedom with the story and script over the writer.

Story tellers, not writers, storytellers. There's a difference. Considering you didn't add the rest of my quote, maybe you missed that. You know the whole, cohesive narrative and visuals thing. Framing shot, human expressions, flowing actions and panels. All separate part of an art form. Artist in comic books are directors, writers write screenplays. That's the difference.

I'm not saying that artists are idiots. Most of them are very savvy people. But, imo, reading comic books and thinking "I WANNA DO THAT" can only go so far. You need to work to learn to draw. Well you need to work a lot more than learning english to write a dramatically valuable story.

You think learning to write is harder than learning to draw, so you do think all artist do is draw pretty pictures and move along. Like there's no language of movement, of sequential style. Drawing isn't enough, there a whole lot more theory behind it that most writers think they get but can't because they're not artists. To take your words and translate them in to pictures takes twice the effort you took to write them. If you write a splash page, it took you two seconds to write it, because it's a splash page, it'll take that artist hours.

Actually in the world of live action films the artist is pretty disposable. The director usually draws the storyboard (horribly might I add) but as long as the director can communicate what he's thinking to other people that's enough.

Have you seen Martin Scorsese's storyboards? They are horribly drawn and barely coherent. Didn't stop him from making masterful films from his or someone else's script.

Try doing that with a poor script...

Maybe the movies you watch look like shit. I'm sure they're still masterfully written, but no one is going to say they're visually beautiful. I guarantee a visually stunning film had a storyboard artist of great skill, because you need one. I'm 99% sure someone took Scorsese's storyboards for Hugo and went behind them to create the atmosphere. This is a visual medium, to make it stunning you need a great artist, you only need a competent writer for it to make sense.

That is actually true. We are paying because we can't do it. But then again... why are artists looking for a writer? And if you can crack into the industry why don't you do it now?

Then again, it really depends on your motivation for creating comic books or stories or whatever. Do you want to create entertainment or create art? As a theorist (and yes I've worked as a theorists and gotten published... not that creative people outside the academia really cares... or the industry for that matter... ) I find the entire idea that you want to create something just to get noticed and sell or get a job to be a little counterproductive to the entire idea of art.

Sure, art needs money and without money art wouldn't exist and you can theoretically get by (and sell... depending on your marketing and concept) with creating poorly written and dramatically uninteresting stories.

But if you had to increase your portfolio, or submit projects for a studio. Wouldn't you rather do it with a story that actually has a large amount of creative merit over some sloppy poorly pasted together pastiche of past comic books?

If you think crafting stories, dialogue, and characters that would rival the likes of Aaron Sorkin or David Mamet is easy and no big deal then go ahead... do it. I would challenge any artists who doesn't have creative writing training (or atleast somewhat knows the fiction theory) to do so.

I am doing it now. Literally. Working on submissions to Image and Darkhorse right now, with some writers. I do have 5 years of creative fiction experience, I've been to creative writing workshops and I've studied great writing, I've worked with people in the comic industry since I started high school, which I've literally just gotten out of.

I know what it takes to make great writing, dialog is my greatest weapon, and any idiot can put together a coherent plot. It's literally the easiest part of writing, making it character driven is the hardest part, but most writer's don't have the patience to let their character work shit out themselves. Or they simply don't know the characters well enough to let them. I draw because I like to, and if people are willing to pay me, then I'll take the money. I don't writer my own at the moment because I won't pay me to draw, but others will. I've been poor my whole life, I won't turn down money.

See that's a blanket generalization that's a little unfair. So Grant Morrison couldn't do better so that means every writer who aren't professionals (yet) have to be worse right?

Maybe this is why the comic industry's suffering from poor writing in general because this attitude is absolutely detrimental.

Look at the film industry. Looking away from the mainstream. Look at Sundance films, Finger Lakes Film Festival films, European drama films made with only 1k budget with actors and crew basically getting paid just enough to eat for that day.

How many amazing movies have been created on a minimal to no budget and impacted the film industry in ways that previous generations could have never imagined?

Maybe the comic industry is suffering from poor writing because the writers suck.

The crew still gets paid, unless everyone is friends, because guess what, you don't ask strangers to do shit for free. If you want someone to do something for free, you should be friends. That's it.

I don't really care about the writing if I'm drawing as long as it's coherent, because the writing never meant anything to me in comics, I grew up in the 1990s where comic books were crap and they were crap before that with a few exceptions. At the same time I was reading Dickens, and the Chronicles of Narnia, LotR, and a slew of other great books, children or other. I was watching every great animated film that was suggested to me. In fact I read more Manga than anything because at least One Piece and Dragonball were fun, and had interesting art. I know what good writing is, I write. I know the effort it takes to make a great piece of art, writing and visual. There's a reason more people write than draw, because it's a lot harder and you can't kid yourself into thinking your good.

If you think it's so much easier then just do it. Put a decade into become a sequential art, not just an artist, but a sequential artist, because nothing else is good enough and there a big difference in disciplines. You're paying money for what you can't do and for the expertise. The visual dialogue, the color theory, the perspective, the basic understanding of character movement and design. I can draw a comic from some of the greatest films and comics ever made, they're literally right there on the internet. i can make a comic from a book if I want to. I can even make an 8 page script to draw, because I can.

And you can learn to be a sequential artist.

[Bob Gordon]

ZWOL and DW are full of people wanting to exploit artists dreams to get into comics by offering "BACK END" deals and a promise of future profits.
What the creator/owner/writer is attempting to do is launch a business with free labor.
Like starting a factory or a small shop with out paying workers until you turn a profit. And then the workers have no access to the books and paperwork or even direct knowledge of what deals or money has changed hands. So the worker couldn't possibly know IF they are receiving their promised cut.

If someone wishes to start a business on free help, free labor, they really are nothing more than a person trying to cheat their way into owning a business.

These "creators" may not have the money to pay artists but that's the 1st sign that they aren't ready to begin their business. If they were, they would 1st create the money needed to begin. Even if that meant getting extra jobs, loans, or etc. That's starting a business.

Anyone looking for artists to work for free and claiming that in just months an individual who can't even scrape together a couple thousand dollars but will have a successful comic that will launch an artists career is delusional and the artists who follow them will get nothing, no money, no exposure-nothing.

[Rob Lefebvre]

Writers and artists are equally important in comics, anyone who says otherwise is ignorant. Just to throw it out there, Sin City, Watchmen, The Sandman, The Killing Joke, and a slew of comics are great because of the writting. The art was good, but a less talented artist could have produced them and they would have been just as good. The old archie comics were not some works of great art the was visually stunning, yet they were classics anyway. I don't recall the early spider or super man comcics drawn with the same God like skill many in this thread procliam to have.

Going by your own statements a lot of artsit on here are claiming that when they draw something they turn out a product, something a writer can not do. Why then do you need a writer in a forums to pay you? If you are so good that I must take a second job to get access to you skills, why are you not working in the comics bussiness already? Again, if writing is such an easy skill why are you all not writing your own comics and going down one of the many self publishing avenus that are available online?

Again let me get this straight. There are artist on here talking shit about how little use writers are to the world of comics, yet at the same time suggesting that they must take extra jobs to pay the artist. I say this to all GROW UP. You are not as good as you think you are, writer or artist. We are all on these forums because we are not professionals. No one is trying to exploit anyone. Also, because this really pissed me off I will put it in perspective. Asking me to take a second job to have money to pay you, is the same as me asking you to take a second job so you can pay your bills while you work for free.

[lizardfolk]

Story tellers, not writers, storytellers. There's a difference. Considering you didn't add the rest of my quote, maybe you missed that. You know the whole, cohesive narrative and visuals thing. Framing shot, human expressions, flowing actions and panels. All separate part of an art form. Artist in comic books are directors, writers write screenplays. That's the difference.

You got me there.

You think learning to write is harder than learning to draw, so you do think all artist do is draw pretty pictures and move along. Like there's no language of movement, of sequential style. Drawing isn't enough, there a whole lot more theory behind it that most writers think they get but can't because they're not artists. To take your words and translate them in to pictures takes twice the effort you took to write them. If you write a splash page, it took you two seconds to write it, because it's a splash page, it'll take that artist hours.

Actually I didn't say that. You assumed that's what I was saying. I was merely saying that writing isn't more disposable than art.

But yes look at your analogy. It takes 2 seconds to write a splash page and it takes an artist hours to do it. Sure, it takes an artists longer to perfect their craft, but their results are more easily appreciated.

Like I said. How quickly can you appreciate great art? 2 seconds. How quickly can you appreciate Aaron Sorkin's Social Network script (by not watching the movie)? Probably a good 2 hours to read then a good 30 minutes if not more to reflect and that's assuming you're able to wrap your head about Sorkin's writing to begin with.

Maybe the movies you watch look like shit. I'm sure they're still masterfully written, but no one is going to say they're visually beautiful. I guarantee a visually stunning film had a storyboard artist of great skill, because you need one. I'm 99% sure someone took Scorsese's storyboards for Hugo and went behind them to create the atmosphere. This is a visual medium, to make it stunning you need a great artist, you only need a competent writer for it to make sense.

I watch as many movies as I can. From The Avengers to Sundance dramas like Little Miss Sunshine or Primer or Another Earth.

Heck... my absolutely favorite piece of writing in anything:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isjOFFJn4Zw

It's from HBO's show In Treatment. Absolutely masterpiece of writing and has really propelled TV writing as a very drama based medium.

Premise of In Treatment. 23 minutes of a therapy session in real time. Really! That's it. No flashbacks, No cutaways. 23 minutes of literally two people sitting down talking the entire time and the most "action" you can expect is the person getting up to get a glass of water.

Does that sound boring to you? Well let me tell you, the writing in In Treatment touched me immensely. Pure character, pure dialogue, and most importantly, writing as it's best.

Can you write In Treatment? No? No interest?

Ok... what about some Aaron Sorkin?

2012 The Newsroom:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJWKccHQ ... re=related

GENIUS scene. Superbly written. Absolutely one of the best monologue and rants I've ever seen in practically anything.

Can you write that? Let me tell you it takes talent to pull something like that off. I come from a playwrite background going into movie screenwriting and branching a little into comics. So maybe my view that writing as the meat of everything story and drama based is a little weird for all you. But you don't need to go to HBO's In Treatment, or Game of Thrones, or Showtime's The Tudors. Or Sundance drama films to see amazing writing at work.

Watchmen, Sin City, and countless other comicbooks that puts writing and drama at the forefront of the story.

Maybe I'm alone in the comic fanbase for this, but an In Treatment comic book would be amazingly interesting to me if the writer can pull it off.

I am doing it now. Literally. Working on submissions to Image and Darkhorse right now, with some writers. I do have 5 years of creative fiction experience, I've been to creative writing workshops and I've studied great writing, I've worked with people in the comic industry since I started high school, which I've literally just gotten out of.

I know what it takes to make great writing, dialog is my greatest weapon, and any idiot can put together a coherent plot. It's literally the easiest part of writing, making it character driven is the hardest part, but most writer's don't have the patience to let their character work shit out themselves. Or they simply don't know the characters well enough to let them. I draw because I like to, and if people are willing to pay me, then I'll take the money. I don't writer my own at the moment because I won't pay me to draw, but others will. I've been poor my whole life, I won't turn down money.

It's easy? Ok. Write a political drama or a political conspiracy that makes sense and doesn't rely on the "evil corporation just doing evil because they can" motivation. Write a science fiction intrigue about the intricacies and moral dilemma of cloning, time travel, artificial intelligence as slaves. Can you do that? Can you give that kind of subject material proper treatment?

Let me give you a list of stuff that do:
Syrianna, Michael Clayton (Oscar nominated btw), Page Eight (british tv show), Issac Asimov's i,Robot.

Think you can pull that off? Seriously? You think writing Syrianna or Asimov's i,Robot is easy?

Maybe the comic industry is suffering from poor writing because the writers suck.

Sure... that's a commonly accepted problem but it's also a problem in principles. You wanna know why playwrites are one of the most well respected writing professions in the entire storytelling industry? Principle and education. Simple as that.

The crew still gets paid, unless everyone is friends, because guess what, you don't ask strangers to do shit for free. If you want someone to do something for free, you should be friends. That's it.

Noo... no no that's not true in the film industry. Let me give you an IMDB profile of someone

Baby Norman: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2641517/resume

Read her credentials and her skill set. She's obviously not the best actress in the industry but she has professional credit.

Scroll all the way down:
Are you willing to work unpaid?: Yes

I've worked for free on other people's films. No seriously I have as a crew or a DP (Director of Photography) or as a writer. In fact, I have yet to get paid doing films on set. The only time I've gotten paid for anything in the film industry is being a critic and theorist for a newspaper or an academic journal. That is it.

There's an unspoken rule in the film industry "people who aren't willing to work for free aren't working". It's unbelievably true. No one wants to pay anyone anything and we're all driven by passion. I graduated from Ithaca College in Cinema Production (not a bad program for films btw) and every single production about a drama film (In Treatment style) only promises money enough to eat for that day.

Maybe the comic industry works differently and I'm willing to admit that. But independant filmmakers starve and do their projects for free.

I don't really care about the writing if I'm drawing as long as it's coherent, because the writing never meant anything to me in comics, I grew up in the 1990s where comic books were crap and they were crap before that with a few exceptions. At the same time I was reading Dickens, and the Chronicles of Narnia, LotR, and a slew of other great books, children or other. I was watching every great animated film that was suggested to me. In fact I read more Manga than anything because at least One Piece and Dragonball were fun, and had interesting art. I know what good writing is, I write. I know the effort it takes to make a great piece of art, writing and visual. There's a reason more people write than draw, because it's a lot harder and you can't kid yourself into thinking your good.

Sure, you can kid yourself into thinking you're Aaron Sorkin or David Mamet or Hemingway and you can't with art. But that just makes pushing a great script and yourself that much harder.

If I question your abilities as an artist. You can easily post an artwork to prove me wrong.

You obviously don't believe in MY abilities as a writer. What can I do to prove to you I'm actually worth it? Give you a script? What so you can gloss over it, miss the themes and development and just label it crap? How do you know I'm not the next Aaron Sorkin?

See how much harder it is being a writer even tho it's physically easier to do than drawing?

If you think it's so much easier then just do it. Put a decade into become a sequential art, not just an artist, but a sequential artist, because nothing else is good enough and there a big difference in disciplines. You're paying money for what you can't do and for the expertise. The visual dialogue, the color theory, the perspective, the basic understanding of character movement and design.

I never said it's easier to draw than write. I'm trying to point out that you are underestimating the craft of writing.

I can draw a comic from some of the greatest films and comics ever made, they're literally right there on the internet. i can make a comic from a book if I want to.

A script isn't more worthless than one piece of picture. In fact, a script isn't more worthless than a comicbook.

In the film industry we dont treat scripts like disposable pieces of crap that anyone can churn out. A script is a foundation of a movie and without it. There isn't a movie worth making.

I can even make an 8 page script to draw, because I can.

Fine. Do it. We'll see how good your 8 page script is when you do it.

And you can learn to be a sequential artist.

I can but I wont because I already have too much on my plate studying writing. After all, I work in the fiction field as a theorist.

I'm an academic and a scholar in some ways studying people from Andre Bazin to Hans Vaihinger. If you don't atleast know who some fiction theorists are and their work as well as code of criticism and analysis? Then I'm sorry I dont believe you're qualified to even comment on my field.

[mikekennedy]

can't everyone just be friends?

[Bob Gordon]

I don't know who started this "Back End" garbage, but that's what it is-garbage!
This issue is not about writer vs. artist.
It's about persons wanting to create a product, and start a business on the backs of others.
Some like to say "It's a part of the business".
Actually, it's not. Self publishers and smaller publishers are so small, they are to the business as amateur, fan-made videos are to the film business-not a part of it.
What you have are creators, usually a writer, seeking artists to work for free.
The creator is of course seeking to build a name for their self, or even build a up a character in hope of one day making it big.
They wish to start a business or make it into comics by using another person as free labor. That is an indisputable fact, that may PISS someone off when brought to light but that's just something they will need to deal with or move on.
As for a person working 2 jobs or 3 to save money to pay people to work for them, of course they should.
Asking a person to work "BACK END" is the same as walking around bumming money. You are BUMMING people for free labor because you think it will get you somewhere.
You do not wish to earn their labor, you do not wish to pay them so you BUM IT! FACT!
While there seems to be no shortage of BUMS looking for free labor, there is a shortage of these BUMS actually making it into the industry.
I'll say again, if a person is not resourceful enough to fund a business, which means they pay their workers, they have no business thinking about it.
They need to go get a real job and forget their BUM a BUSINESS scheme.
Someone can hold up some example of a guy who got BUMMED by some creator and went on to success but it's very unlikely that some BUMS comic that may have sold 800 copies had anything to do with it.

[Bocasean]

800 copies is nothing to sneeze at, especially for a small title. I've seen titles like Wolverine and the X-men and Savage Dragon sell just over 2000 copies, and those are are WAY bigger titles than anything on this board. Granted, those were sales figures from Diamond, so that doesn't account for direct sales at conventions and print-on-demand/internet orders, but still, my point is that the TRUE problem with the misconceptions of "back end" deals is that first-time books simply don't make money.

They are useful as a tool to get the creators' names into the public eye, but they just don't pull in any income.

So that's why published artists won't look at back-end deals; because they know that there won't BE any back-end money.

I understand where the writers are coming from; why put up all the risk when the likelihood of that book making money is so slim? I get that. If it's financially impossible for you to take that risk, the ONLY chance you have is to find a similarly-unknown artist who has nothing published to his name and who needs sequential content to start filling up his portfolio.

Otherwise, you have ZERO chance of getting a professional artist to work without upfront payment. The good news is that you can CHOOSE who your artist will be when you pay for it. No one on this board should be charging any more than $100 a page, with most of the pro artists in the $30-$60 range. With that kind of budget, you can find a highly skilled artist with some sort of publication history, which will include the insights you'll need to produce a high-quality finished product. Knowledge of printing formats, color-types, and file transfer are all part of the puzzle; it's more than just drawing. You can also choose someone you ENJOY working with and ignore the A-holes....since you get what you pay for, you can pay for what you WANT to get.

If you believe in your "unique story" enough to think that people will want to read it, you'll have to work extra shifts or save up the funding to make it happen. Since you believe in it, this should be an easy choice. It's definitely the ONLY choice, but YOU are the only person who believes in it at this point. Another benefit to paying the artist upfront is that YOU own it...all profits on the back end will go to you.

Since you believe in your story, that's how you should want it.

[Bob Gordon]

The big promise attached to "Back End" deals is exposure. The fact is Editors and Talent Scouts at Marvel, DC, Dark Horse and etc., do not search small press comics looking for creators.
If an artist makes a name for their self at a legitimate publisher, they may notice if it's in the top 5 publishers, and the artist has done quite a few great pieces of work.
And there are actually many artists that aren't well known with years of experience with the top 5 or top 10, out there looking for projects.
So having done a project with a self publisher, no matter how great it may be, is not getting an artist "EXPOSURE".
The fact is that if an artist cannot walk up to a table at a con and get interest from a person representing a publisher, they simply aren't ready. And that comic they did for FREE for some guy isn't a back door past their shortcomings.
The best way for artists to get paying work from real publishers is to develop their artwork to a pro level. This is done through studying and learning by doing pages upon pages of work.
Also, this is not 1995. If a "creator" has a truly great idea that people really want to see, then we have crowdfunding such as Kickstarter.
In the past year, creators I know have used Kickstarter to take their projects directly to the people, fund and publish the comics and make money for all involved.
If a comic can't get enough interest to get Crowdfunded, it's likely not a good idea or not quality made and therefore is a waste of time.
With Crowdfunding there is no excuse for these "Back End" schemes.
If a creator doesn't feel their Comic would succeed at Kickstarter, then that says much about that project.

[naffslack]

Only problem with Kickstarter is that it only allows US residents to create a project, which kinda stops the non american population of the world from using this really cool site.

I'm contemplating Indiegogo instead.

[LadyDeath]

Dear lizard folk, pardon my french, but you're being a little pretentious brat. Hopefully you'll remove your nose long enough from the air to read what I'm posting.

First for my credentials, which are no mystery as you proclaim writer's talents to be, I am BOTH a writer AND an artist. It's a magical concept I know. As for the writer side of me I've been published a copious amount in newspapers, magazines, and such - why just last year I won a 500$ playwrighting contest, and that play is now being produced by a local theatre. Oh did I mention I have two degrees one in creative writing and one in theatre. And the art well I've designed costumes and scenery for 6 shows so far, i've won art contests, and am working on several comic submissions myself.

I suppose what stumps me the most here is why these 'talented writers' don't just write themselves a book...magic is it? The point of a comic book is that it has art, that's what separates it from a novel so if you want to create a comic book and you can't draw then either pay for what you desire or write a book or play if you're such a bottle of talent juice.

Also I resent this notion that art takes 2 seconds to appreciate and yet a movie takes 2 hours (perhaps you're confusing 'appreciation' with 'time one takes to look at something' - since i imagine if you visited the lovre you'd take it on at a dead sprint.)

And yes I know the lovre is not exactly the kind of art you're talking about but you keep comparing high writing to low art, which isn't a fair fight. I think a lot of people here are pitting low writing and low art against each other for value in which i must agree that low art wins - because even though it's not the best it still takes longer and more work than low writing.

You also talk about how some comics just look cool but have no real substance or writing - a valid point. But aren't there written pieces that behave the same way? (for this example i am referring to non-comic writing to make my point clearer) There are pieces of writing that use certain topics or ideas to draw attention or attempt to seem good but are ultimately relying on a gimmick rather than good writing - this happens in theatre a lot as well.

Something else I'll say in reference to comic art is that if the art is good but the story is ok (not the best) I can survive it, but if the art is wretched and the story is good it's impossible to make it through - why? because the art is the majority of how the 'good script' is conveyed - in fact i would say the art conveys 80% of the writer's script if not more on some occasions. (think of a conversation you have with someone in person vs. online - 1/3 of a conversation is the text itself which means that online you're missing out on 2/3s.)

You also make a valid point that a good artist can be assessed quicker than a good writer (time it takes to look at a picture vs. read a story sure). But honestly it really only takes me one paragraph into a person's story to know whether they have skill (or one page into a play). It may sound terrible but it's true, and I have been a part of far too many writing workshops that back up this point.

You also mentioned that there are 'artists' who read comics books and yell violently at the ceiling fan 'IMA DO THAT' - and somehow it doesn't occur to you that there are lots of writers like this? (hell there are singers, actors, lawyers, doctors, politicians, etc. like that.)

You asked do you want to create entertainment or create art? (as if they are mutually exclusive) the best artists and writers in this world do both.

You also said artists results are more easily appreciated and I disagree with that (especially with you taking 2 seconds to appreciate them - does that not prove anything to you?) Most people don't spend a lot of time looking at the art or the intricacies or appreciating it because it's page 11/23 and they want to finish the chapter to know what happens. (It's like lighting design in theatre, when it's good no one notices - when it's bad everyone notices)

I think the silliest thing you keep saying is about this comparison to established writers/artists and the desire to be just like them (or people thinking they can be them). Any writer/artist who becomes one only to shoot for being like someone else or accomplishing what that person has is doomed for failure from the beginning. And perhaps that's the ultimate thing that separates a real writer/artist from a fake - a fake one wants to write/make art - a real one HAS to.

Lastly if we lived in a world where we didn't need money for rent, clothing, food, or general survival - I'd be happy to draw for free. But we don't and I need money.


P.S. bad writers irritate me more than bad artists because bad writers are generally less receptive to criticism. Perhaps it's the difference between the art community vs. the literature community, having been in both there is a stark difference.

[imaginarypeople]

what irritates me the most is when a writer is asking for an artist to draw there script on a message board and they don't have any links to previous scripts of stories they have.

[jj robinson]

bitch........whine.......boo-hoo!!!!

look...here's the deal.this morning when i pulled myself from my pit i opened the cupboard and had a choice.....tea or coffee,sure i would have liked a glass of oj but we didn't have any in.
so i made up my mind and went with the coffee....with 2 sugars,cream and a couple of biscuits.at no point did i regret my decision or want to sit down and write a 5000 word essay of why i was forced to choose between 2 beverages while i secretly hankered after a 3rd....no it was coffee all the way for me because i had a choice to make with the drinks at my disposal and today felt like a caffeine type of day.....tomorrow it may well be tea,but that is a minefield whose border i shall cross when it presents its self to me.

so a little perspective here.....we all make decisions every day,yours will have included reading this post up to this point while others will have made the choice to pass it by....well mine was to drink coffee...read...and then reply to this subject......but tomorrow i may choose to enforce my plan of world domination !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


..............or i may just decide to go with the tea....and a slice of toast,i love toast.....i wish I'd of had toast this morning!



GOOD MORNING YOU GREAT BIG BEAUTIFUL WORLD

[naffslack]

Right on.

[J J ROBINSON]

I hear ya......


WORD!!!

[mikekennedy]

tea,two sugars and a tiny bit of milk along with a slice of toast and a crumpet.

rock on crumpets

www.michaelkennedyillustrationart.wordpress.com

[naffslack]

What about peanut butter on the crumpets.