why is $10/pg too much for you writers?

[ld-airgrafix]

Why not share profits once book is published, I honestly don't get expect to get a paying job in comics until I have successfully published few books.

[LadyDeath]

curious about how things are on the other side of the spectrum, how should a comic script writer charge for their services? Per page? Word Count?

You charge the same way artists do, per time spent. An artist drawing, inking, coloring, and lettering one page takes lots of hours. In comparison to a writer writing one page with takes less than half an hour if that. (I'm saying this as someone who both writes and illustrates comics. The art side takes longer. Think about it in terms of a day job with a pay per hour.)

[Bob Gordon]

If someone wants to self publish a comic they are wanting to start a business.
But most of these ambitious entrepreneurs are not willing to raise money to pay those they wish to employ as they begin their business. So they look for a cheat. They want something for nothing.
And so they post a typical add that states they want an artist to work for free for a really great pitch for Image. And if Image passes on it they shall take it elsewhere. But they are sure it will get picked up. And when it does it means exposure for the artist and the artist will get paid from profits.
1. Exposure? Really? How many artists have drawn for Marvel and or DC and don't get contracts and may do a bit of work for smaller publishers before finally exiting the industry. If working for Marvel doesnt get you in the door at Dc and vice versa, how does working on a Kickstarter comic or a comic with some nobody on some small press setup get you exposure?
An artist can do fifty small press comics and never get "exposure" while some kid at a Con gets a project from the Big 2.
Doing a small comic for a small company or a self published comic means nothing to any real publisher.
So the exposure promise is a joke.
2. Back end pay. So some guy is a great writer but he can't even come up with a few hundred dollars to pay an employee, money kids make at Burger King, so I guess Mr. Writer can't hold a job, but Mr. Writer is somehow smart enough to do what thousands of others cant and thats create a profitable comic. And Mr. Writer who has no resources to his name is amazingly resourceful enough to talk business with Image (Its always Image isnt it) and Mr. Writer, who cant even think of a proper way to pay people or hold a fast food job is going to get Image to publish his comic.
amazing how the Artist and Image Comics are just going to hand a career to Mr. Writer. all these wonderful things just suddenly happen for Mr. Writer who up till now cant even come up with a measly couple hundred dollars to pay someone to work for him.
In reality, Mr. Writer is a BUM! Mr. Writer has no idea how to start a business or even how to create a couple hundred dollars. Little kids that want a car bad enough find a way to get the money. Mr. Writer doesnt have that power of innovation or the backbone the little kid has, no. He thinks hes more clever than the Little Kid, he will get it all for free.
In the end, Mr. Writer gets no comic no one gets exposure, no back end pay. And if Mr. Writer wants money he'll just keep bumming it off his girlfriend, assuring her he will one day make it big and like Mr. Artist she'll get her back end pay.

[dbppres]

personally, i would only pay per page. seriously, all a writer has to do, is STOP BUYING COMICS/STARBUCK'S/DVD'S, etc, and hire cheap unknowns, from their local H.S.'s, colleges, comic shops, with the money saved from stopping frivolous spending.

[Alextrog]

Yes, because the reason all writers can't afford to pay artists is because of rampant frivolity. Not because of any possible real world obligations.

I can't really understand any kind of 'It's artists Vs. Writers' mindset, or animosity toward one skill or the other. It's supposed to be a synergy of words and pictures. People working together in a team, with a common goal.

The way things are now: The writer is the lowest on the totem pole (In the independent world), is expected to pay for the pencilling, inking, lettering, etc. Yet, whenever I've had an artist ask me if I want to work on a project of theirs, the topic of money (i.e -me being paid) has never come up. Now, I'm not denigrating anyone, I'm just saying that that's the mindset now: Artist's time - worth money and respect. Writers time - he should feel lucky I even let him work with me.

I've worked with artists who have turned work around quickly, accurately and looked awesome. I've had artists disappear, take money and half complete a job, etc. That doesn't mean I've formed an iron-clad opinion of all illustrators. The experiences were mixed, because they were different people with different work ethics and morals, or whatever.

Similarly, you can't just say 'Writers should spend less on DVDs and Coffee, then they'd have more money to give to me!' Because that's a sweeping generalisation that's never going to benefit anyone, or elicit anything positive.

You can't say one skill is 'better', or more important to the process. It's totally unnecessary.

[darkersho]

I've attempted to explain the same to @dbppres-- unfortunately he's a sycophant troll and I'm convinced is nothing more than a fan-boy posing as an artist.

Feel free to prove me wrong with a link.

There should be no animosity between Writer and Artist. It is a partnership. So instead of begging for ten dollars a page, why don't you do it for free (as the writer hasn't been paid a dime for his script) and build your portfolio. And then maybe you'll earn a paying gig and the respect you desire.

[imaginarypeople]

you get what you pay for.
if you are a amateur writer looking for an amateur artist for free work i am sure you will find one. but i see alot of posts that have writers looking for professional artists. if you want professional art for your comic, you are gonna have to pay professional prices.
i usually write and draw my own stuff. i only work with another writer if: a. they are paying me or b. they are also professional and i enjoy there work.

[Kagaenod]

It is true that some artists will work with you to work on their portfolio, but I agree that most artists will only work if they like the writer's work or are paid. I personally think that's fair enough, I personally wouldn't work with an artist whose work is subpar, I've certainly turned down a couple. The problem is is that as a writer it's hard to advertise yourself well. I advertise by linking to the various comics I've worked on and giving several story ideas I'd be open to work on (While at the same time remaining open to an idea by the artist). Most writers don't have prior experience, and therefore can't show previous works. Some do attach scripts, but it's a lot harder to look at a script than at a picture. So I can understand an artist's reluctance to work with most of the writers out there, or at least reluctance without a paycheck.

[darkersho]

It is true that some artists will work with you to work on their portfolio, but I agree that most artists will only work if they like the writer's work or are paid. I personally think that's fair enough, I personally wouldn't work with an artist whose work is subpar, I've certainly turned down a couple. The problem is is that as a writer it's hard to advertise yourself well. I advertise by linking to the various comics I've worked on and giving several story ideas I'd be open to work on (While at the same time remaining open to an idea by the artist). Most writers don't have prior experience, and therefore can't show previous works. Some do attach scripts, but it's a lot harder to look at a script than at a picture. So I can understand an artist's reluctance to work with most of the writers out there, or at least reluctance without a paycheck.

I've followed a similar regimen and received notable success!

[Alextrog]

Oh totally. I've set up a decent looking blog with samples of writing, easy to find, so it's like an online portfolio for a writer, but like you say - it's much harder to get people to read a script than look at awesome illustrations.

[LadyDeath]

There should be no animosity between Writer and Artist. It is a partnership. So instead of begging for ten dollars a page, why don't you do it for free (as the writer hasn't been paid a dime for his script) and build your portfolio. And then maybe you'll earn a paying gig and the respect you desire.

Warning: I'm going to say the harsh things that are true but that no one wants to admit or say.

Here's the problem with this scenario, it's not really a partnership most of the time. In fact it's rare that there are true partnerships.

If you're talking about two good friends one a writer one an artist (or both artists, both writers, etc) and they both want to create a story it's definitely a partnership because they both contribute ideas and want the story to succeed and will work together for free because they have a dream that they want to accomplish and why would they pay each other- they both want it - they both benefit in the same way.

Now when you have a writer or artist looking for someone to fill the other's positional void it's not really a partnership it's work. The person hiring has the dream the person getting hired is willing to offer their services for something in return - which is money. Because let me tell you if it weren't for money I would not illustrate or write for anyone else, because I'd rather work on my own stuff (as I imagine most people would because that's what you care about) so the only real reason (other than perhaps beefing up a portfolio) someone would hire themselves out is for money.

It's extremely rare for no names to make it big with their comic so i'm definitely not doing it for notoriety or earning money from 'making it big'. Not to mention most of the comic book pitches I hear, suck. so most of the time I definitely don't 'believe in the vision' and therefore am not a partner. I think most of the comic pitches on here have huge flaws and come from people who think they can write but can't prove it. They probably haven't been published and have no real writing experience. They just have an idea and while it may amuse them, and that's wonderful and everything, it does not amuse me. Some people may think that I'm monster for saying that and this next part- I do not believe that anyone can do anything they set their little minds to. You need training, you need talent, you need experience, and even then you may not produce something worth anything.

And then there are the comic pitches that are really good but even those still have a really poor chance of finding their niche in a comic industry that values what 'already works'. (Ergo Marvel will not accept anything new because why fix what's not broken? The comics they have make them plenty of money. Also this is not the economy to try something new in.)

Not to mention the other problem with the 'partnership' is that most 'writers' have already decided on the story - and they say they're 'open to other idea's' but they're not. People get extremely defensive when critiqued. I've been a part of hundreds of writing workshops and between people feeling nervous about critiquing someone else's work or ideas and being able to critique but having the writer get defensive or not listen - it's extremely difficult to create true partnerships between strangers especially ones over the internet. If I suggest anything I run the risk of being fired instantaneously or offending my employer.

To say that an artist is a partner is just ridiculous - if we look at real world models the artist is never a partner - i hate to say this but they are worker bees. The fact that the artist says 'what do YOU want?' already equates to an inequality which is fine if you get paid. The person at the top of the totem pole is the director, the producer, the visionary, the writer and everyone else in movies, games, animation, etc. who design, illustrate, and produce - work to get what those at the top want. If you get hired by Marvel or DC they don't care about your ideas you're a penciller, inker, colorist, or letterer not a mouth with opinions.

It's just greed really to want something for nothing. Charge per hour it's the only fair way for both writers and artists to both get paid on equal terms. Needless to say the artist will probably work longer but we don't have to deal with 'fixed prices' determining worth. You're now worth how much you work and I think that's fair.

If you want something you have to pay for it, you don't go to an art store and say 'can I have these paints for free, I'm going to make something really great with them it might be famous then you'd get notoriety for having made the paints I used' no you pay for the damn paints. If you can't pay then your little dream can wait. I apologize if I sounded bitter. If an artist is willing to work for free fine, but do not justify asking someone to work for free unless it's for charity and even then I'd need to see certification.

and I believe what dbppres is saying is that most people today even those making very little somehow find money for frivolous expenses like going to the movies, alcohol, new comics, etc. Maybe instead of spending your money on those 'extra's' you can spend it on this, since essentially this is just as frivolous of a desire because the chances of it getting published or 'making it big' are rare to impossible. When I wanted a new sewing machine I stopped getting coffee out places for a couple months. Do not tell me your sad pathetic story about how you have no money, if you are buying anything extra that you don't NEED for survival then you have the money.

You want your dream realized? you pay for it. End of story.

[dbppres]

i'm glad that someone understands what my point was. btw writers, check out what i got for a 10.00 investment(2 sketches).

[ld-airgrafix]

Dbppres, are you happy with those drawings?

[dbppres]

i know that they look like midgets on steroids, but in my defense, i took those pics, from a webcam. they look better, when viewed in person, which i can arrange to show LIVE, via IM on Google.

[dbppres]

Id-airgrafx, i'm being very serious about proving that offering even a small sum, can get an idea from imagination, to reality.

[ld-airgrafix]

Dbppress, being an artist myself i wish everyone thought like you. At the moment im busy with full time work and family, two little kids dont really understand why daddy cant play with them all the time haha. I do airbrushing as a hobby which sometimes pays, that leaves me no time to draw comics. But if someone offered to pay for my services than i suppose i could find time by not accepting an airbrushing job for example. At the moment for me anything that pays comes first and gets better results.
As i said i dont have time to pencil comics for free, but if someone wants a character sketch or cover for example, i could do that free, because it doesnt take long, and with digital art it doesnt cost anything either.

[darkersho]

Last quote does not exists!

Ugh, what a nonsensical diatribe.

I. Am. A. Published. Writer.

Working with an artist IS a partnership. I want a team player not an employee. Dragging the forums for "artists" is like strolling a flea market, it's mostly shit. You people have attitude problems. And I wouldn't pay ten dollars for this particular artist's work because it's pure shit. Luckily there are ten million other "artists" out there.

So to the dregs and trolls... have fun.

[LadyDeath]

Ugh, what a nonsensical diatribe.

I. Am. A. Published. Writer.

Working with an artist IS a partnership. I want a team player not an employee. Dragging the forums for "artists" is like strolling a flea market, it's mostly shit. You people have attitude problems. And I wouldn't pay ten dollars for this particular artist's work because it's pure shit. Luckily there are ten million other "artists" out there.

So to the dregs and trolls... have fun.

Prove. It.

Prove that you're a published author - I can prove that I am, can you?

Prove that an artist is a partner, what evidence do you have? I've showed you real world models, actual examples, -what do you have? An ideology? A theory? A hope? A dream? Everything works in theory, hell communism is a great idea...in theory. But this is reality and partnerships especially on creative endeavors are rarely true and rarely work.

It doesn't matter how much you say or think it - it doesn't make it so. You're operating from your perspective alone where you believe your ideas are wonderful and have a wonderful chance of success and that some random artist should trust the random stranger on the internet with no proven track record (and only your word to go on) and expect that you'll give them credit for their work and perhaps glory if it does get published but with your ego I'm not sure that would happen. You think that you're such a wonderful person and you want your artist to be on equal terms with you but at the end of the day it's you explaining to them what YOU want.

I don't have an attitude problem, I have a truth problem. Too much of it. My apologies the truth is rarely beautiful and almost never politically correct. I get tired and frustrated of hearing the ridiculous arguments people come up with and then the realization that I could give you every piece of evidence in the world and have every intelligent mind in the world agree with me and you still wouldn't waver in your opinion. That is the real problem.

Yes, that's it make fun of the artists on here because that raises my opinion of you so much because only a 'good writer' can tell who a 'bad artist' is.

Let me tell you for every one 'artist' there are 100 'writers'.

'Team player'? Oh you're one of those. Managers say to their staff that they don't want employees they want 'team players' - but who get's paid more and who's in charge? The manager. The Manager is not equal to the employees are they? They can say what they want, they want to work WITH you - but at the end of the day you're working FOR them not with them. It's the truth. You can have your beautiful ideologies about an equal society where everyone works together and rides unicorns naked into the sunset, I'll keep my paycheck.

Prove. Me. Wrong.

[LadyDeath]

I need to say one more thing for my sanity and for perhaps better understanding.

There are projects I work on for free. They are going to take a long long time to draw, write, finish and get shipped out but ultimately I know that they are good and will get published and I don't mind spending all that time working on them because I get something out of it. They are my own projects because everyone believes more in whats more important to them. I value my ideas more than yours (just like you value your ideas more than mine).

I recently did the math on one of the hundreds of comics I'm working on. This is the first book of four in a series and the shortest chapter in the first book is 37 pages (which i determined based on how much happens), there are going to be 25 chapters in the book. If I assume every chapter is at least 37 pages that makes the whole book over 1,000 pages at least...and it also means even if I somehow do 3 pages a day on top of trying to make a living doing things for other people it would still take me well over a year to finish and probably longer (since 3 pages a day on top of survival is ridiculous - full color btw). Kind of depressing.

So is it really monstrous of me to prefer to work on my own work rather than yours? Should I really believe in YOUR dream over my own? Is it wrong of me to take drawing gigs to pay for the things I need to live? Because let me tell you if I'm living in a box I can't do my own stuff either.

I've also been screwed over a lot by 'partners'. I can name three 'partnerships' off the top of my head where they ended up abandoning the project and one where I was so heavily invested both in idea and art and when the other person left they threatened to sue if I continued with the project on my own.

So yes, I'm going to play it safe. I'm not going to trust every person online or believe in just anyone's vision and I think that's fair. I'd rather work for myself because I know who I am, I can trust myself, and I have my best interests in mind.

If you don't want to pay someone (because you do not value what they are going through and what they are doing for you) then learn to draw or write a novel as opposed to a graphic novel.

[Theogago]

That's right prove it

[bill]

Something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If no one is willing to pay for your work (artist or writer), stop your crying and do something for free to build your portfolio and get something out there. Maybe someone will actually pay you someday.

I'm a published writer and am about to be published again. Guess what? That and $3 will get me on the c-train. I'd happily write something for free if I was interested in the project. Why? I love to write. Even if I was making tons of cash, I would still write for free if I liked the project. Do it because you can't not do it.

Build your skills, get noticed, maybe make some money, maybe make lots, but suck it up or tap out.

[Theogago]

Yeah your right, if you want help ask for free...
Don't put some unreasonable price and demanding something, always be care what you post for.

There is some one out there willing to help and don't put price of 5 to 10 usd ... That's slap to face"

[imaginarypeople]

thats true
i am less insulted when a writer asks for a collaboration than if they offer $5 or $10 a page

heres something all the artists should read: http://my.deviantart.com/messages/#/d5fs51a

[LadyDeath]

thats true
i am less insulted when a writer asks for a collaboration than if they offer $5 or $10 a page

heres something all the artists should read: http://my.deviantart.com/messages/#/d5fs51a

I just meant 10$ as a 'at minimum' price you can charge more, plus I also said per hour - and for real artists even more and I'll address this in a second. I would not accept 10$ a page especially as I've already been paid more so I wouldn't lower my price which I also think is important for artists. If you've already been paid for something do not lower your price (firstly its unfair to those who've already paid you and they may not work with you again, second people love to take advantage and the chances of you getting your price back up again will be hard with people demanding the lower price or that you lower it more!)

I freelance, and right now one of my jobs is illustrating a children's book at 16$ an hour - 20 hours a week. Needless to say I wouldn't do a page for 10$, but it's more insulting I think to say 'do it for free'.

Also I like that article & completely agree with it. On a side note I hate it when people think they can do something because 'they watched a behind the scenes video and now understand everything' or as the article puts it 'you can stand on hardwood floors so you can build them'.

I knew a girl in middle school who was a terrible artist but wanted to be a graphic novel artist. She took all the same classes in high school that I did and our senior year her style was unchanged. She went to a 4 year art college and upon emerging I got to see her stuff once more, and it STILL hadn't changed from the crap it was years and years ago (she never got body proportions correct and legs and arms would be bent in weird ways as if they were broken even though they were just opening a door. Plus she couldn't draw backgrounds, she'd often put a real photograph in the background like people wouldn't notice...). This is someone who should not be a graphic novel artist but she REALLY REALLY wants to be. She's finally realized that she can't do it and went to pharmacy school instead. For some people it takes a long time and a lot of their money spent before they realize they aren't cut out for this.

Something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If no one is willing to pay for your work (artist or writer), stop your crying and do something for free to build your portfolio and get something out there. Maybe someone will actually pay you someday.

I imagine a lot of people on here are like my friend i described above, they really REALLY want to do this - but can they? Most of them are probably either young, haven't taken an art class, and have no idea what it takes. Some may develop their style and become better - some never will. The people who never will aren't worth paying for sure, but do not compare them to other good artists and ask those good artists to work for free.

I know the game believe me the artists you want to work for you for free or to 'build their portfolio' are the ones worth paying for (because clearly you want them but don't want to pay) and the ones you reference as 'not worth paying for' are artists who you wouldn't want for free anyway. Funny?

I'm a published writer and am about to be published again. Guess what? That and $3 will get me on the c-train. I'd happily write something for free if I was interested in the project. Why? I love to write. Even if I was making tons of cash, I would still write for free if I liked the project. Do it because you can't not do it.

Build your skills, get noticed, maybe make some money, maybe make lots, but suck it up or tap out.

I use to do a lot for free, back in school. Most of what I've had published I didn't get paid for (magazines, newspapers, even contests), and all the illustrations I did for newspapers, theatre, and people were all free. I even designed for 6 different shows for free - one of which I hand made 35+ costumes for free. And I love doing that stuff - if someone was willing to give me a free apartment, let me have my car for free (no payments), and free food and materials to do my work I'd do everything for free but unfortunately that will never happen. Now someday once I'm making enough royalties and money to support myself I probably will go back to doing things for free but right now I can't and I'm not being unreasonable. survival is kind of important. We do live in reality, as much as Id rather not, and you have to be realistic about living at least some of the time.

I resent you using 'because I love to do it' 'do it because you can't not do it' for a couple reasons. Firstly just because you love to and have to does not mean get involved in every single thing you see even if it doesn't pay. The first reason why I might not do a project (and perhaps the LARGEST reason) is because I don't think it's worth doing. And there are things not worth doing (for one reason or another) for example would you want to be a backup singer for one of the tone deaf people on american idol who try out but clearly suck even though you want to be a singer some day? NO. There are always options and just because a person doesn't take one doesn't make them 'wrong'.

I get paid by people on odesk and elance to write and draw, and i prefer those sites because they are secure and I am guaranteed payment. If I choose to do those over non-paying ones here I'm wrong? Because a 'true artist' or a 'true writer' works for free? Actually that's not true real artists and writers do get paid because there is a consensus among employers and consumers that they can do the stuff they say. The larger the consensus the more money they get paid!

The other problem I have with your statements is because that's exactly why I do what I do. Because I have to. I was made to write and draw, by whatever higher power there is if there should be one - that's what I was intended for. And because of this I find it impossible to work for or with people who I find to be untalented or terrible or clearly not made to do this. In those situations I end up taking over the project because I have more ideas and more ability or I end up outshining the other person which should not happen, and i hate it when that happens. True collaborations are where people work together and both shine.

I'm going to use a theatre example because theatre is all collaboration on every level. Of the 6 plays I've designed for 5 of the directors were wonderful, I loved them we worked together and their directing was strong and my scenic or costume design (I alternate) matched what they were doing in addition to the other designers. It worked together - as it should and nothing stole the spotlight.

Now in one show I worked for there was a terrible director. He was Narcissistic , thought everyone else was there to be his servants, and that he could do whatever he wanted on a whim. He was inconsistent and couldn't decide on an overall idea that was driving his version of the play, he also changed his mind all the time, and while simultaneously having 'too many ideas' had none worth pursuing. Unfortunately this meant that the designers were on their own.

I was the scenic designer for this play and based on what he originally told me (this is an abstract play, all the actors will be on stage all the time - 7 people, the audience will be in an L configuration and the stage will be long and must be addressed from two sides) I designed a set even though these changed much later on after the set was built and in the process of being painted.

My set had 15 platforms and I painted them all myself (that's a lot of painting for those who do not paint scenery, and I did it all myself. Many of them were specialty platforms requiring wood grain or brick). There were also paintings I did for it that hung along the walls, and various other pieces. Needless to say it was a very large and amazing set - a lot to look at. After opening night there was a talkback with the director. The main thing the audience wanted to talk about was the set and the director (taking his narcissistic cue) decided to say in front of a large group of people that he designed it all himself, and built, and painted it (as he kept saying I built, I painted, I designed it this way because of stupid unrelated reasons. One reason he said was that 'all the platforms are square or rectangular because the women are round and theres a contrast. Wrong (and stupid) the platforms are square because one round platform would take up most if not all of the build time we were allotted for the show and would result in only one platform. So I went into the stock room by myself and measured all of our stock platforms and we used those which are all square or rectangular. So they're that way because it doesn't cost any money or build time to use so we can have more).

The school tried to make him apologize for what he did but all they got was him saying 'I'm sorry she feels that way'. My point overall was that the set stole the show and I didn't mean it to. It may have been an amazing set but technically it was a failure because in theatre everything is suppose to work together. So I will not work with or for someone who I feel cannot pull their own slack and do what they need to do.

There are still things I might do for free. For example I'll probably be trying out for a play in a month that will not pay but I love acting and I don't currently live in an area that has paying theatre troupes.

In review: It's not bad for a person to ask for money when they've been paid before, and know that they can get someone else to pay.

If a person wants to do it for free thats their prerogative, but do not ask them to.

There are lots of other valid and valuable reasons not to work for someone, pay is not the only reason.

You shouldn't leap at any and every opportunity for writing or drawing since some of them may not be suited for you, something you can do, and some aren't worth doing.

The person you want to work for free (because you really want them as your artist) is the person who's probably worth paying for.

The people you claim 'aren't worth paying' are the ones who you probably don't want to illustrate for you anyway because they're terrible.

Not all artists or writers who want to be artists or writers or who even love being artists or writers are good, talented, and worth paying. They will eventually come to the sad realization that they aren't capable of doing things well and move on with their lives.

You write or draw because you have to - sure, but you don't have to write or draw everything and anything that comes in your path. Moderation is an important lesson most people haven't mastered - have we learned nothing from goldilocks and the three bears?

All of my conclusions are based on a culmination of teaching, reading, and life experience. I'd be happy to be proven wrong if you can actually do so but I highly doubt that anyone can. If there is anything you don't fully understand about what I've said feel free to ask.

Keep your beautiful ideologies to yourself, world peace will only be possible when all the humans on earth are dead.