A couple of suggestions to all writers seeking artists

[mibodega]

Quite often artists are desperate to find a good writer, just as much as a good writer hopes to find a good artist. However, I come across many many writers that say they are looking for an artist but they do not post any prior scripts or short stories to sample and read.

I would like to find a great writer so I can just focus on the art (I want to do a webcomic) , but I have to make sure he/she is a better writer than me ... which does not take much ... cause I am a lousy writer or simply don't have the patience for it ( I just want to freaken DRAW not write ) Just to give you an idea of my writing technique, I usually draw a character and try to write a story based on how he looks ... pretty pathetic.

100% of the time, when an artist is interested in getting work, people ask them show samples of their work, why should it be any different for a writer, inker, colorist, letterer? The fear of every artist is to get stuck drawing a comic that is not interesting to them or anyone for that matter.

I recently found a writer on Deviant Art, whom I forgot to bookmark or add to my fav's and I have not been able to find again, but he had me very interested in working with him ... why? because he posted several scripts that needed and artist ... right there in your face so you can read them. Even more impressive in his journal he wrote something along the lines of, read these scripts and tell me if any of them interest you, or if none them spark any interest I have dozens more of scripts that I have written, tell me what you like to draw fantasy, noir, crime, sci-fi, superhero, chances are I have one for you.

To add to it, the stories where pretty Damn good, some where short 5 pagers, others where 20-30-40 pages. To top if off he also offered $10 a page which is not necessary ( in my case) but a nice gesture.

Just take a Look through most of the posts from writers seeking artists on this forum ... only 1 maybe 2 link to their work ... makes you wonder what are they afraid of? or wtf are they hiding?

All I have read on this forum is, "I have written this and I need that, 50 pages, 10 part series, no pay until it makes money, ... email me".

Seriously dude?

Want to hook an artist? show them what you have written before, I mean we expect that you have written a story with a beginning middle and end before ... right? Otherwise we can write it ourselves. I cannot write a great story but sure as heck know when I am reading one.

Keep in mind drawing comics, if done right, is labor intensive, takes a lot of energy and TIME, so instead of posting, "I have a 4 part series (YIKES) written and I am looking for an artist to draw them (for free)", instead post some details about what genre, synopsis, examples of the style you would like, recent stories, etc. but for christ sakes give us something!

What makes me take a closer look when reading a post from a writer seeking an artist? something like this:

I am a writer looking to collab with an artist on a comic that we create together or if you would like to read some of my scripts,plots, you can go here {LINK} and if any of them interest you then let's go for it!

Someone on here (I think ) wrote something that mentioned that he/she wants to work with an artist, neither of them get paid, let's just do it for the fun of it. I liked that because it is honest, no BS promises, and most importantly inviting.

Artists are always weary of people trying to take advantage of their talents. So offering to work with them ON YOUR project already turns them off. why? because already you are taking the lead and pretty much asking the artist to slave over something that you are passionate about, without asking them if that same thing appeals to them ... and we haven't even exchanged a vowel yet. That is not COLLABORATION.

Just a few thoughts, that's all.

[naffslack]

Totally agree with you and i have never thought to give links to samples of script. If they ask, i do have those samples but i guess maybe a lot of writers are paranoid that if they give away their scripts to everyone or broadcast it over the net, then it makes it easier for ideas to be stolen.

Not saying its true but it might be why. Same for artists i know but anyway.

[ld-airgrafix]

Totally agree with you and i have never thought to give links to samples of script. If they ask, i do have those samples but i guess maybe a lot of writers are paranoid that if they give away their scripts to everyone or broadcast it over the net, then it makes it easier for ideas to be stolen.

Not saying its true but it might be why. Same for artists i know but anyway.

"A rich billionaire by day, masked vigilante by night" dont think anyone needs to be paranoid to have this script stolen ha ha.
But seriously even a word is enough, "superhero", "western" etc

[Harvester_Of_Sorrow]

I agree with this post 100%. I think far too many writers just assume that any artist looking for work will want to work with them regardless of those artists having no idea what their story is about.

I posted an ad myself looking for a full art team and thought it necessary to post a short, not very detailed, synopsis of the story. I thought I was doing this just to shed a little more light on the project, but that it wouldn't be a major influence on any artist wanting to work on it because I had also mentioned that I had $985 to spend on getting the project finished.

I got a fair few replies (in only 1 day) but the ones who I am currently more drawn towards accepting for the roles are the ones who included in their messages things like:

'Hey, I like the sound of your story' or 'it sounds like a challenging project for me but one I would enjoy working on' or 'I have experience drawing x, y and z so I can say with confidence that I will be able to do this' etc, as oppose to the ones who just say:

'Hey, I saw your post, here is a link to my portfolio. Hope to hear from you soon.'

I don't mind that approach, I'll still look at your artwork, of course, but it would be nice if you could at least acknowledge the story which your are looking to spend the next few days/weeks/months of your life drawing.

Giving potential artists a synopsis of your story isn't only beneficial for them, but also for you. You can tell the difference between the ones who are just looking to work with you for the money and nothing more and the ones who like the sound of the project, want to get involved, want to challenge themselves and want to bring your idea to life. And the fact that they're getting paid for it is just a nice bonus.

Now, if I said I wanted an artist to work on a free project, I would get far fewer replies, I would think. But if I put more detail into the synopsis, explained the themes and, most importantly, explained why I want to make this story in particular, I imagine I would get at least a couple of artists interested. And those guys/girls would go the full distance, I'm sure.

I feel sorry for artists in this sense (and illustrators in particular) they work for hours on end to produce these fantastic sequential pages, that beforehand only existed as words on a page, for less money than is deserved most of the time (or sometimes no money at all) to a deadline to a standard indicative of what the writer saw on their deviantart page and so many writers it seems don't feel the need to even share the story with them until after they agree to do it (and even then, not always. They just find out on the page).

But I guess we all have our cross to bare.

Anyway, sound advice, and I think I will also start a deviantart page at some point soon myself and post some script samples, novel extracts and finished pages on there to show any future artist that what I am capable of producing. For some reason, that thought had never occurred to me before. Strange.

[naffslack]

Ditto. i had a few up there on my DA page, nothing recent. Lot more now! just unnerves me a little that people fave the scripts almost instantly, not all, just 2 out of 4 i posted it ...fave it to read it later before you even read it...just makes me squirm a little.

I wont put up full scripts, just samples so people get the idea, thanks for the revelation hiding in plain sight!

[mibodega]

I thought I was gonna be attacked after posting that, but it looks like my message to kind of see it from an artists pov got across.

Regarding having your work stolen
The internet is the greatest tool to reach audiences all over the world, and we are fortunate to be living in these times. As great as the internet is, it does have some disadvantages like risking having your work stolen or plagiarized in some way. I think that is a risk we all have to take as artists. Whether it is Animations you are posting on youtube, Newgrounds, Vimeo, webcomics, photography, music, etc.

One Point I forgot to make in my previous post is that the best strategy for meeting and working with an artist of any kind on the internet (long term) is to establish a relationship with them first.

The way to do that is by commenting on their pages, forums, social media etc. If you happen to get one of them interested try starting out with smaller projects first, and then gradually building off of that. A short 5 page story would probably be a great idea. If the 5 pager is Bad a$$ and the art + writing work together well both of you will feel compelled to do it again (specially if it's received well ), because you know for a fact that the 2 of you can work together.

Something that catches my eye when looking for writers is , "this is a short 5 page comic". I would take a shot at it if the script is interesting enough. what's the worse that can happen? if nothing else that would be 5 more pages in my portfolio ... not much of a risk.


PS - after writing the prev post yesterday I searched my history and found that writer I was talking about
http://paul-a-newman.deviantart.com/ look at his approach this is how to fish for artists.

[naffslack]

For what its worth here is my updated DA page!

http://naffslack.deviantart.com/gallery/

Copying it from Open Office to DA isn't easy so there are some layout issues but you get the idea.

[Harvester_Of_Sorrow]

I'd also like to add that I think I can have a go at explaining the mentality of many new writers who join this site and why so many of them people don't seem to succeed.

Imagine you have had this idea in your head since you were 16 years old, it's about a ninja Mars bar that blows up Disney land, and you think about this idea all the time. Whenever you're bored at school/work, whenever you listen to music, whenever you are stuck in a boring conversation with your girlfriends extended family. After a while you see this idea as something that has to be made, even when you try to forget about it, it attaches itself to the forefront of your subconsciousness not allowing you to ignore it, like a limpet with boundary issues. So, you do what any other sane, creative sort would do. You turn to the internet.

After a little bit of searching, you find yourself upon the forum of this website and you see El Dorado. Thread after thread of artists looking for work. Oh yes. Oh yes.

You contact one, explaining about your Mars bar assassin with a lust for explosives and how this story will take over the planet. It will make a mockery of all other comics and they must accept this opportunity at once! They don't reply.

You try another, who does reply but says that although they like the idea (BS alert) they would prefer it if the story was centered around a samurai Snickers bar that breaks into Kew gardens. You tell them you're having none of it! This ninja Mars bar is not just a mere 'character' to you anymore, it is a part of you. Or at least a part of your mind. Like a metaphysical tumor that conducts your thoughts when they begin to wonder, constantly showing you images of the destruction of Disneyland from different angles and perspectives. You won't have any guy on the internet telling you any different.

You try another, who asks 'well, I get that it's a ninja Mars bar, but what else is there about this character? Other than it is a chocolate bar armed with a sword, why will anyone care about it or want to read about it?' Heresy!, you think, not only has this supposed 'artist' missed entirely the beguile of your story, but they are asking you explain the development of more than just 2 or 3 scenes to them. And the motivation of a main character that has been centered entirely around the fact that it is a confectionery bar with a sword. How dare they!?

Then you try another post, and, against all the odds, you find an artist who loves the ninja Mars bar! They were shocked that they never thought up the idea first! And they would work night and day for this project until it is finished, not to get recognition, not even to get paid, but just so that anyone in the world who dug deep enough into the world of indie comics to find your ninja Mars bar would be altered forever by having read of it's plight.

Then you sit down to adapt the story outline to a comic script.

You realize that writing a comic script is tougher than you thought.

You go outside and play football.

Ninja Mars bar is gone forever (Thank God).

-End

[JennaP]

I hadn't thought of posting my script samples to DA. There's a couple I wouldn't post on the internet because I'm hoping to develop them and don't want them out there, but my portfolio samples, I might do that with - I have an account and occasionally put up photos.

And yes, if I was looking for an artist to hire, they'd get to see a sample of what they were doing. Artists need to be inspired by a project too! (Why am I not looking for one? Because I can't afford to pay the rates I'd want to be paid if I was the artist right now). But that's only reasonable.

[mibodega]

For what its worth here is my updated DA page!

http://naffslack.deviantart.com/gallery/

Copying it from Open Office to DA isn't easy so there are some layout issues but you get the idea.

Love the layout of your Deviant art page, not sure what it looked like before but this is awesome as I see it artists will love it, now all you have to do is go on several artists' pages and socialize I bet several artists will bite once they can actually get a good feel of what your level/style of writing is ... assuming it is good, Haven't read the scripts yet, the weekly grind prevents it but I will as soon as I have quiet time.

[mibodega]

I hadn't thought of posting my script samples to DA. There's a couple I wouldn't post on the internet because I'm hoping to develop them and don't want them out there, but my portfolio samples, I might do that with - I have an account and occasionally put up photos.

And yes, if I was looking for an artist to hire, they'd get to see a sample of what they were doing. Artists need to be inspired by a project too! (Why am I not looking for one? Because I can't afford to pay the rates I'd want to be paid if I was the artist right now). But that's only reasonable.

If you have what you feel is your personal gold mine or something you feel is special then don't post it, totally understandable, but post other things you have written that you feel would show others what you can do, or maybe write a short script(S) that you are not really attached to so much. Leave it up to them to decide, if your writing is good an artist would be like a mouse and your scripts would be the cheese.

Believe me I scour the internet looking for a particular style of writing. I would do one for free (voluntarily without you asking me to) if the writer not only writes well but understands writing for comics. I usually try to spot things like the writer asking the artist to draw 10 panels on page 1, the first panel should cover half the page, how the heck is that possible? so one BIG PANEL and 9 tiny ones? not to mention the that we have to leave room for text, not fun to draw, regardless of how good of a writer that person is I would say, "this person writes well but has no idea how to write for comics, waist of time" ... NEXT! Most artist spend countless hours and have spent a lot money trying to master their craft, they will probably expect you to have done the same ... at least know the basics - this goes both ways.

I think Blambot has a good article on this

Many artists on DA are not established and are looking to break in, and some are pretty damn good, most of them need to work on something to build a portfolio, plus the practice is priceless. You'd be surprised how many of them would work for free if you Don't ask them to. Perhaps a better way to put it would be work towards building a portfolio instead of saying work for free ... makes sense?

Come to think of it that is a good subject line, "Writer Looking for an artist to collaborate on building our portfolios together"


Just whatever you do don't offer that dreaded line, "I will pay you once it makes money line, it's guaranteed" come at them from a different angle, "here's what I can do, if you like it go ahead take a shot at it" let me know if you want more to choose from" That way you don't give them the impression that they are going to work for you, because when your mind thinks you are working for somebody you expect to get what? P.A.I.D. by somebody.

Last thought, some of the artists that may show interest may not be what you have in mind, maybe they are not ... let's just say ... not there yet as far as talent or technique. So switching over to the writer's point of view, how would you handle if an artist is asking for a chance to work on your scripts if their work is less than mediocre? or what if they are extremely good, would that intimidate you? Do you care how good or bad the art is long as your story is drawn? curious to know.

[JennaP]

Bluntly, I'm not going to let anyone work for me for free unless they are *really* committed to the script and willing to work for submission. It would have to be a true collaboration.

First of all I discourage, as a matter of principle, ANYONE from working for somebody else for free. Exposure is what you get when you don't pay the rent because you've been wasting too much time working for free. I do realize practice is priceless, but I don't want to be that writer who expects people to work for nothing. There's enough out there already and *I* face enough pressure from various sources to work for "exposure" - why would I do that to anyone else?

Second of all, I've been burned more than once by artists who volunteered to work for me for free then had a paid opportunity show up and bailed on me. I've even been burned by artists who agreed to back end.

Hrm. I hadn't been told the first panel should always be a half page as a "rule" - I may go tweak some scripts slightly now. The ones I have in production do have that (one of them opens with a full page splash). Good point there - now I'm going to have to look at a few comics! (I have sold some scripts, but I've been waiting on art on them , so I can't be that terrible).

As for the latter - I wouldn't be intimidated by extremely good but, just as you expect a minimum amount of ability from writers, I'd expect somebody to be...put it this way, I wouldn't want to be embarrassed if my drawn pages were on their DeviantArt. I'm not that desperate. They'd also have to be personally compatible (I.e, I have to be able to stand them) and not want to be micromanaged creatively.

[mibodega]

Your response comes off a bit defensive, so this will be my last post regarding this cause I do not want to get into an argument with anyone here, but I will say this, you are totally missing my point on almost everything I have posted.

Bluntly, I'm not going to let anyone work for me for free unless they are *really* committed to the script and willing to work for submission. It would have to be a true collaboration.

First of all I discourage, as a matter of principle, ANYONE from working for somebody else for free. Exposure is what you get when you don't pay the rent because you've been wasting too much time working for free. I do realize practice is priceless, but I don't want to be that writer who expects people to work for nothing. There's enough out there already and *I* face enough pressure from various sources to work for "exposure" - why would I do that to anyone else?

If you have the money to pay an established artist to draw your comic then that is the best and easiest way to go about it. You can scout artists and see if they are committed to creating comics. You can usually tell who is and who isn't by looking at their portfolios, but many writers who are starting out do not have that kind of money.

Second of all, I've been burned more than once by artists who volunteered to work for me for free then had a paid opportunity show up and bailed on me. I've even been burned by artists who agreed to back end.

It happens, dirt bags come in all shape and sizes, think of this as part of the story you will tell people at conventions when they ask how did you and your artist meet, so ... get over it ... try again ... or give up ... your choice.

Has a nice ring to it right, "your artist" or "my writer" . "yes I will get with my artist to see if this is a project he would be interested in pursuing".



What I am trying to do is help us find one other, referring to Writers and Artists who have not had the chance to break into comics and are looking to find someone to work with to achieve a common goal.

Hrm. I hadn't been told the first panel should always be a half page as a "rule" - I may go tweak some scripts slightly now. The ones I have in production do have that (one of them opens with a full page splash). Good point there - now I'm going to have to look at a few comics! (I have sold some scripts, but I've been waiting on art on them , so I can't be that terrible).

I never been told the first panel should always be a half page as a "rule" either - I gave you an example of what would turn me off or make me bail immediately I never said it was rule. If the writer is REALLY good I might offer some resources online to help him or her learn the basics of comic scripting and formatting.

First of all I discourage, as a matter of principle, ANYONE from working for somebody else for free. Exposure is what you get when you don't pay the rent because you've been wasting too much time working for free. I do realize practice is priceless, but C. There's enough out there already and *I* face enough pressure from various sources to work for "exposure" - why would I do that to anyone else?

I am not encouraging anyone to work for free.

I am speaking from my own point of view on this, and I am sure that their are artists out there who feel totally different about it. These are just opinions of mine based on me wanting to find a good writer to establish a good long lasting relationship with and not being able to find one because of a few minor details they may have missed.

The part where you say " I don't want to be that writer who expects people to work for nothing" is exactly my point of what not to expect. Speaking from my own experience I want to build a comic book portfolio, most of the work I have done has been in Storyboards, which is a cousin to comics IMO, they are pretty similar in that you must be well schooled in the art of drawing, and storytelling, to be successful, but they are not completely the same. Anyway that's another conversatioin all together, I am still freelancing as storyboard artist I have one client who keeps me Busy ( god bless her I get to board on some really cool projects, and some boring ones like wedding planning ( heh heh-I hope she never reads this)

Anyway my point is, How do you think I landed work doing storyboards? by going to unproduced scripts and asking some of the writers that post their scripts on those forums if I could board their scripts for the sake of building my portfolio. Some them asked "can I used them to pitch my stories?", I said I would be honored. After scripting some their boards I found work doing storyboards, because I built a worthy portfolio and they got storyboards for free + Plus I threw in an animatic to show my appreciation. Some of them even realized that there where holes in their scripts, storyboards will expose those things. Now I am trying to do the same to get into comics. I don't see it as working for free, I see it as us exchanging ( Bartering ) our talents to benefit both of us.

My suggestion pertains to someone like me, who wants to be tested with comics. I have the skills necessary to create comics ( drawing, storytelling, pacing etc.) I do not have the skills to write a good story which frankly deflates me because although the art may look good, the fact that I know the story sucks discourages me, so I get nothing done, I do not like producing garbage

Someone recently asked me what if someone offers you work because of the comic we created together but the writer is not offered to join you? would you take the job and leave the writer behind?

That was an interesting question and one I still don't know how to answer so I threw it back at him, what would you do?

[JennaP]

I am defensive because I am tired of the entire "cult" as I think of it of it being okay to work for free "for the sake of art." That's all I'm going to say.

I'd love to find a good collaborator, but I'm not going to do work that doesn't have an overall plan behind it to get PAID work. Portfolio work has to have a plan behind it. You had a plan - that makes it different.

I simply don't want to be associated with those writers who just want free art to make money off of...and you can't tell me they aren't out there :/.

[mibodega]

Ok one last post, I agree on the free bee cult, but consider that I am suggesting a solution for us to filter out those evil cult members. Not sure if it will work or not but I think its worth a shot.

I am an artist looking for a writer, you are a writer looking for an artist. Neither of us are established but want to be.

what I am suggesting Is to establish a relationship, start small, see if your talents mesh well, (no one can guarantee that they will ) all of the other stuff will come, if the overall product is of good quality.

but I'd want an action plan with that person for how we were going to work towards making money, be it submitting to companies, doing a web comic, whatever.

You are jumping the gun here, one thing at a time, you can't run without first learning to walk. Not saying you should or shouldn't mention it to the artist, but again things like that will come if you focus on becoming really good at your craft, besides you can make all the plans you want, if the work is not of good quality it will not make a penny online or in the real world.

Once you and the artist create something of quality together then you can start saying, "ok we've got something good here ... webcomic? comixology? pitch it to Image? what?

Right now I am thinking of creating a few comic pages, and use them to I find a writer. Not for a second am I thinking how is it going to make money because I know that that is a given. Instead I am taking up some figure drawing classes, reading will eisner's books as a refresher, taking my drawing table out of storage and sharpening my pencils, learning Manga Studio, basically I'm getting ready for war.

Portfolio work has to have a plan behind it. You had a plan - that makes it different.

I have a plan now and it's the same one! someone writes, I draw, simple.

[JennaP]

A true collaboration is not the same thing as working for somebody else to free - but I'd want an action plan with that person for how we were going to work towards making money, be it submitting to companies, doing a web comic, whatever.

And talents absolutely have to mesh well. I'm not going to work with an artist who's style makes my head hurt - even if they're good. (If a publisher pairs me with one, that's another matter, I accept that as part of the price of getting work).

[BradHoltpistol]

You do make a good point. I'm a writer looking for an artist to collaborate with. If you are still looking for a writer to collaborate with give me your email address and I can email you a synopsis of my Idea if you're interested and you can send me some of your artwork in exchange?

[IamGoogol]

I have updated my post with this link to my superhero:
http://www.iamgoogol.com/who-is-googol/