My beef with back-end %

emocort · Post by **emocort** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:38 pm

Back-end % can be great if you are selling in the thousands but when you are an indie publisher and you do the math, things look as follows.

lets say you sell your comic for $1us through comixology.
Apple takes 30 cents and comixology takes 35 cents. Now if the publisher is smart they will take half of whats left over and reinvest it into their company, so lets say they take 18 cents. you are now left with 17 cents that needs to be divided between the people who worked on that issue, so 1 writer, 1 editor, 3 artists and 1 letterer. so everyone gets less than 3cents per issue sold.

now keep in mind that you as an artist spent about a month working on your 24 page comic and would like $100us per page for a total of $2400.00. so 80,000 issues later and you made what you are worth. Even if you charged $4us per comic that is still a lot of comics you need to sell to earn back on your investment. So you need to be prepared to play the waiting game and be in it for the long haul.

Eagle-NO-Earth · Post by **Eagle-NO-Earth** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:42 pm

emocort wrote:Back-end % can be great if you are selling in the thousands but when you are an indie publisher and you do the math, things look as follows.

lets say you sell your comic for $1us through comixology.
Apple takes 30 cents and comixology takes 35 cents. Now if the publisher is smart they will take half of whats left over and reinvest it into their company, so lets say they take 18 cents. you are now left with 17 cents that needs to be divided between the people who worked on that issue, so 1 writer, 1 editor, 3 artists and 1 letterer. so everyone gets less than 3cents per issue sold.

now keep in mind that you as an artist spent about a month working on your 24 page comic and would like $100us per page for a total of $2400.00. so 80,000 issues later and you made what you are worth. Even if you charged $4us per comic that is still a lot of comics you need to sell to earn back on your investment. So you need to be prepared to play the waiting game and be in it for the long haul.

Nothing wrong with a single thing you said. Oh, one minor quibble. The company is probably not re-investing half the money, but that's still not a really big change to your figures.
And at $28,800 a year, that means that as an artist, you are making about double minimum wage, positing a 40 hour work week.
So let me tell you about the fly in the ointment here. You just described an economic model that doesn't work on a reliable basis. At that point, it no longer matters who is paid what where, the model is broken.
However, this is why I disagree with the current movement by some creators to be paid up front. The only way that works is if you have an established publisher who's already got income to cover expansion and future projects. If the project is a gamble on a shaky business model, then one person asking to be paid up front and leave others to take the gamble is a problem. It usually breaks down into one starving creator charging another starving creator. Silly, and not sustainable in the long run.

Eagle
(And probably not the short run either)

emocort · Post by **emocort** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:03 pm

exactly, thats why it gets up my anus when people on here offer % and make it sound great. its like how mcdonalds says they have great job opportunities and offer "competitive wages".

Eagle-NO-Earth · Post by **Eagle-NO-Earth** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:08 pm

emocort wrote:exactly, thats why it gets up my anus when people on here offer % and make it sound great. its like how mcdonalds says they have great job opportunities and offer "competitive wages".

It's not great. Look, in the interest of full disclosure, backend % is all I can offer anyone right now. However, that's not my pitch. Here's the reason why:

I'm a good businessman. I've built successful (meaning support me and 1-12 others) internet businesses before. One of them before there really was an internet (ask me about Videotel sometime). I know how to make money, and I gotta tell you, this entire business needs an enema.

There is money to be made, but if that's what you are after in life, I might suggest getting a real job. Most creators in comics are not going to make it. that's not being harsh, that's looking at the numbers. It's always been a competitive business, but that's gotten out of control in the last 15 years since comics had their bubble burst.

What I look for is people that come to my site, and find something they get excited about. The only thing that's going to give any project a fighting chance is if the people involved with it believe in it. If they are passionate about it. If they are willing to take that gamble that you have laid out so well in your OP. People that come into this wanting to get paid and get out, that's not going to get them in the door of comics in this day and age. If they are after a upfront payment, I'm not interested. That's not a collaboration, it's work for hire. It's not a share of the gamble, it's asking me to pay out an additional expense that I have no sure way of making back. I also doubt my financial situation is much better than theirs.

As you pointed out so well, unless you get in with a big publisher, it's all a crap shoot. And you're using the house dice. And they're loaded. I recognise that it's the biggest game in town, but I am doing what I can to change the odds on my end.

Eagle
(Hard realities are never pleasant)
(

ld-airgrafix · Post by **ld-airgrafix** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:35 pm

Spot on Eagle. If you are looking to become rich, get a 9-5 job. Collaboration is a great way to get exposure and experience. If the only thing you care about is money, this is the wrong busniess to be in.
not having a go at OP, just saying in general

Eagle-NO-Earth · Post by **Eagle-NO-Earth** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:05 pm

ld-airgrafix wrote:Spot on Eagle. If you are looking to become rich, get a 9-5 job. Collaboration is a great way to get exposure and experience. If the only thing you care about is money, this is the wrong busniess to be in.
not having a go at OP, just saying in general

The other take-away from my post is that I feel that the business model needs to change. I'm only one person, but I am going to see what I can do about making small changes.

Eagle
(Idealism isn't just for the young)

emocort · Post by **emocort** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:14 pm

back to the original topic, i think if you can cut out the middle-man and do well with marketing you can make money from your comic. Comixology in a way is like kickstarter, they are there but they dont really do anything to promote your comic unless you are marvel or DC and APPLE are the ones who are actually selling your comic, so why give them 50%?

Eagle-NO-Earth · Post by **Eagle-NO-Earth** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:55 am

emocort wrote:back to the original topic, i think if you can cut out the middle-man and do well with marketing you can make money from your comic. Comixology in a way is like kickstarter, they are there but they dont really do anything to promote your comic unless you are marvel or DC and APPLE are the ones who are actually selling your comic, so why give them 50%?

Now you are seeing the same things that I am seeing. That's why I have NO-Earth set up the way I do, to take advantage of that method of thinking.

Eagle
(It's supposed to be creators against the world, not each other)

noonecomics · Post by **noonecomics** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:59 pm

this is a really interesting topic, however I have to declare myself a noob , I looked into this article by jim zub (im a fan)
he really digs into it a bit
<img class="overflowing" src="http://www.jimzub.com/wp-content/upload ... igital.png" alt="http://www.jimzub.com/wp-content/upload ... png"></img>

the article is here
http://www.jimzub.com/okay-but-what-abo ... al-comics/

Eagle-NO-Earth · Post by **Eagle-NO-Earth** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:51 pm

noonecomics wrote:this is a really interesting topic, however I have to declare myself a noob , I looked into this article by jim zub (im a fan)
he really digs into it a bit
<img class="overflowing" src="http://www.jimzub.com/wp-content/upload ... igital.png" alt="http://www.jimzub.com/wp-content/upload ... png"></url>

the article is here
http://www.jimzub.com/okay-but-what-abo ... al-comics/

Two words: It's broken.

Eagle
( I see ways to fix it, but that 65% is what's killing us, as creators)

emocort · Post by **emocort** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:19 pm

ok so the big question is......how do we (or can we) fix the problem? it seems that being the selling platform is where its at. If you could make a platform like comixology or comicsfix, but for way less than $10 a month or 50% plus other fees, you could sell indie and pro comics and everyone would get more in return, sure you as the platform would get less per sale but you make up for that in volume, kind of like a dollar/bargain store.

Eagle-NO-Earth · Post by **Eagle-NO-Earth** » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:58 am

emocort wrote:ok so the big question is......how do we (or can we) fix the problem? it seems that being the selling platform is where its at. If you could make a platform like comixology or comicsfix, but for way less than $10 a month or 50% plus other fees, you could sell indie and pro comics and everyone would get more in return, sure you as the platform would get less per sale but you make up for that in volume, kind of like a dollar/bargain store.

Honestly? You won't like the answer. That avenue is not going to get fixed until such time as enough publishers band together and either force the current regime to change, or create something that works better for cheaper. The only way they are going to do that is if enough creators say "this is bullshit" and band together to get the publishers off the bubble. Do you think a publisher likes this any more than we as creators do?

Let's be honest. Put aside the 'writers vs artists' red herring, and look at the real picture. Is 17 cents on the dollar to SPLIT amongst the creative team reasonable or equitable? Is 35% to SPLIT amongst the creative team and the publisher any better? This is worse than anything that Diamond ever did to the industry. This is not a distributor taking a reasonable percentage, this is what amounts to robbery, and unlike most other industries, raising your price does not net you a larger percentage of the take.

A new business model is needed. By the way, Crowdfunding is no more sustainable than what we have now. I think at this point, it's the only thing propping this whole house of cards up.

I have more research to do, and some more thinking. There is an answer to your question, it just needs to be something that does not replace one problem with another.

Eagle
(It's almost depressing)

emocort · Post by **emocort** » Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:26 pm

ya its like the problem with cable companies, there are only a few to choose from and they both fuck you in one way or another.

I listened to the podcast below and more artists need to do this, even indie publishers and small teams need to do this, not necessarily banding together and renting out a space to share but doing it online maybe. for the people who dont want to listen to the podcast its basically about a bunch of comic artists and illustrators putting their resources and money together to rent out studio space and equipment and all sharing and working together and helping each other out, sometimes passing parts of their work off to another person who can do it better and vis-versa.

http://comicsforbeginners.com/comics-fo ... ve-lieber/

I will admit that it would be hard to put together at first because everyone wants to be in charge and everyone wants to "make a killing" but going solo only kills your comics.

Eagle-NO-Earth · Post by **Eagle-NO-Earth** » Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:43 pm

There are additional expenses not covered in this discussion. Promotion, advertising, hosting fees, webdev, and so on. I'm just getting started, and am heading to a convention this next month, so am figuring out what promotional items I need to get ready, and what that's going to cost me. Someone has to foot those expenses. Someone has to put in that time. It used to be the publisher, but with the creep of creator owned comics, the publishers have eased out of that business, and now the creators wind up having to shill their own product in order to get exposure.
The whole system needs someone to figure out how to rebuild it from the ground up. There is room for a new company to bring a new model in, and start the ball rolling.

Eagle
(Still thinking)

emocort · Post by **emocort** » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:03 pm

i think you are still thinking too singular, where you are talking of just 1 person paying for everything. what i suggest is if you can get the right people together, everyone in the team regardless of how big it is would pitch in and pay for materials, website, promotion etc, and the bigger the team, the more money you will have for it. the keywords being " the right people". for a short time i worked with a rather large team and several of us were willing to pitch in but the main person who was running the ship wouldnt even put in $5 for advertising while the rest of us were willing to put in $20 each. If the leader of the group isnt willing to put in as much or more than everyone else in the group then you know the project is doomed.

ColbinHonour · Post by **ColbinHonour** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:10 am

I agree with emocort, its the distribution that is killing the art. If there was a company that was more intrested in the art form and not the bottom dollar we would all be laughing. Even if your comic gains mild popularity you are still living on rice out of a cardboard box or in your parents basement. I have been doing free work for a published writer in the hopes just to see my work printed. It's greed that is killing the art, From the artist and the distributer. I would be more then willing to lend my time in the hopes for bigger and better things. I figure I can die poor and doing what I love or die poor and misrabul Haha.

emocort · Post by **emocort** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:37 pm

ok so i think we can all agree so far that distribution is the main killer for indie creators/publishers. so what can e do about it? i think if there was a website set up like pintrest or comixology where it was only for indie comics and the comics and descriptions and pricing can be posted in a category format but then when someone ants to buy that comic they are redirected to the publishers/creators website and then can buy directly from the publisher.

ColbinHonour · Post by **ColbinHonour** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:42 pm

Read my mind. We should chat I have some ideas.

Earl Geier · Post by **Earl Geier** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:28 pm

I illustrated a story for Innovation years ago, a six pager, for a percentage. I got a total of $20.

One reason for accepting a lower pay is to get your work out there.

The problem with back-end art, on someone else's books, is that if they run into financial problems or lose interest, they may never release the book. They've invested no money, and less work writing than your art. And you can't do anything with your art except use it as samples.

The other problem is accounting. Unless you have a lawyer, you have few avenues for checking the books. They might be reinvesting the money in the company, or spending it on cocaine (I've heard of both).

The one thing I would advise is that you have a SOLID legal agreement between any creators. Specify WHEN the book will be published, how much and WHEN you will be paid, as well as the deadlines for work, both when the scripts will be received, as well as delivery of the art, with sufficient penalties for failure on any point. ( I've had contact with companies who insist on strict deadlines for the art, but balk at payment penalties.) (And if you don't believe in legal agreements Google Denis Kitchen and the talk Will Eisner gave him).

There are probably some basic contracts somewhere online specifically for comic creators. If not, there are general free-lancer contracts, which you might get modified for free from sites that offer advise to artists (and writers).

emocort · Post by **emocort** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:21 pm

exposure only matters when the right people see what you have done and are willing to pay you for more. if they want a freebie, fuck 'em, they dont matter.

Eagle-NO-Earth · Post by **Eagle-NO-Earth** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:04 am

Sorry, I had a deadline.

Emocort, I'm already working on variations on those ideas. NO-Earth is already Collab friendly, and I am doing what I can to make sure that the profit potential is there long run. It's not going to be easy, but I believe in the concept and the creative freedom of a shared world.

Mr. Geier, I actually owned one of your pieces in another life, due to being a FASA junkie.
One of the main problems with backend percentage is that it's a gamble. If you got $20 out of it, that's better than most of the collabs happening these days.

Which brings me to another point. A Pro is not going to take a backend % most of the time, since they are already getting paid for their work. A talented amateur is more likely to, due to the exposure factor, and it's a better way into the pros. This, by the way, is true of writers as well as artists. I've done work for free as a writer just to get the publishing credit on my resume. Editors want to know if you can deliver, and the best way to know that is look at the publishing credits.
Once you get established, then the freelance work is out there, and very few more freebies ever have to be considered.

Eagle
(And I'm back to amateur status since I'm in a new field)

emocort · Post by **emocort** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:47 am

one way you can adjust the above piechart is to take the publisher out of the equation so theres roughly a 3 way split, or to cut down on team members. taking the publisher out would only work if they are an indie publisher that more or less has no fan base and are jerkoffs (you know who you are) and are doomed to fail. its easy to spot them, look at their social media platforms and look at the numbers.

ok, now that the jerkoffs are no longer in the picture, you need to either market the comic yourself, or make friends with someone who can market it for you, or someone who is really good with social media and can put it out there.

ALL AMATEURS MAKE THE FOLLOWING MISTAKE: they market their comic too late.

they make their comic and finish it, then decide that they need to sell it. WRONG!!! they just did things backwards. look at anything on book marketing and it all says the same thing.

MARKET YOUR BOOK BEFORE YOU EVEN WRITE YOUR FIRST PAGE.

so, as soon as you start coming up with your comic, make social media accounts and start selling your comic and gain an audience from day 1, by the time you are done you will have enough people wanting to buy your book.

Zwol.org

My beef with back-end %

My beef with back-end %

Re: My beef with back-end %

Let me add a bit more.

Back Ended

Multiple replies