Marvel invents webcomics!

[Dirk Deppey]

Shelf space is a limited resource. Whenever a market is grounded in limited resources, control over those resources always accrues to the party with the deepest pockets. Doesn't matter if it's shelf-space or radio frequencies or slots in a cable franchise.

But the IP space is (effectively if not literally) an unlimited resource.

The problem with this argument is that while digital space is effectively unlimited, the browser and viewer protocols that determine how that space is viewed has some very definitive limits -- which is why I argued in the "internet issue" of The Comics Journal that format, not bandwidth is what cartoonists need to pay attention to -- especially now that the MegaCorps have largely abandoned overt economic muscle for legislative muscle as their weapon of choice for fighting peer-to-peer style marketing. If every medium were to be required by law to incorporate Digital Rights Management technology into their browsers and media players, the battleground instantly shifts from "Who's got the bandwidth?" to "Who controls the format?"

[Zem]

You know, any Flash with real scripting abilities (which I believe would be Flash 4 and onward) should be able to handle some sort of bookmarking thing.

I say, Go, Macromedia, go! No, I'm not getting payed to say that... not that I would mind... but anyway, I LIKE Flash. Have you seen some of the cool Flash pages on the 'net? Hot DAMN. I also figured out a way to set my desktop background as a flash file, so now I have a cool clock and a gradient background that changes colors over time. I'm proud of it.

Let me try to trace my discovery of webcomics... let's see... SOME page linked me to Joe the Circle... on the message board there someone referred to User Friendly (which I no longer read, but...), whose message boards led me to discover Sluggy Freelance, from which I discovered Bruno the Bandit and GPF (through the whole Plan 9 thing); from those I looked at the rest of Keenspot and got into several comics on Keenspace, and the rest... is history. (Note: not any history you'll be learning soon.) I never once used a search engine. So I don't know about the whole search-engine-dominating danger. But then, that's just I.

[johnnystorm]

I think it's great you showed up to defend yourself, Johnnystorm :D

My pleasure

It's actually the thing the industry of online comics needs: cross-culture contact between what's happening at both ends of the economic scale:

I met one of the creators of Crossgen's digital comics at the Philly-Con, which was nice, not many people I work with understand what I do. So we were able to talk shop and actuallly understand what we were talking about.

The "Big Bears" (am still calling them Big Bears), as much as the smaller indy companies, and even the amateurs, could work together to make this medium something really swell!

It would be curious to see... but I don't honestly seeing it happen, afterall this is an ego driven industry.

(I do keep some apprehension as to the fact that too big of a standard can be dangerous, if only one company plays the tune to which every reader dances :wink: ...but a standard could be great for a lot of less HTML-snappy creators; maybe something like a customizable infinite canvas with standard click-to-flip-page functions has a future!?)

Its hard enough getting web standards in general, for instance I was unable to use this site in Netscape 4.7, the idea of the internet is that its supposed to be available to anyone... not only to people who have IE on a PC. (slightly bitter :))

:D ...and hey, we're still glad you're able to get a sense of relief from your job :wink: the way you said "QuarkXPress monkey" must mean you'd really hated that! :)

QuarkXPress is a fine program, but when you spend all day cutting and pasting into pre-existing templates... fun galore. :)

[johnnystorm]

Have you considered cutting the panels apart and stringing them along in a single direction?

Interesting idea but it wouldn't work. We have a problem with some books cause of the way they are laid out... no way we could get any consistency to do that. BTW I can't spell to save my life... fair warning.

When an ad would normally appear in the comic the last panel could say "click to continue" and when the user clicks, it goes to an ad page which has a "click to continue" link that leads back to the story. The user wouldn't be able to get around the ads (i.e. you still get paid) and the reader has a better experience. Animating the panels starts to make it more like an animation than a comic.

This brings up an interesting point... what defines a web-comic? The Marvel dotComics is a translation, as close to literal as I could make it, to a printed book. Adding animation takes the thing to a level of early Marvel animations which were just Kirby art animated. The trailers I created for Marvel is a similar theory... how far can you take the comic book online before it becomes an animation. Stan Lee's former web endeavor is a prime example... and it tanked...

[Greg Stephens]

Although Stan Lee dot Com had a lot of other problems that were unrelated to comics or technology. Would have been interesting to see how it might have worked had some of the people behind it (not Stan) been more reliable and less shifty.

[johnnystorm]

The problem with this argument is that while digital space is effectively unlimited, the browser and viewer protocols that determine how that space is viewed has some very definitive limits -- which is why I argued in the "internet issue" of The Comics Journal that format, not bandwidth is what cartoonists need to pay attention to -- especially now that the MegaCorps have largely abandoned overt economic muscle for legislative muscle as their weapon of choice for fighting peer-to-peer style marketing. If every medium were to be required by law to incorporate Digital Rights Management technology into their browsers and media players, the battleground instantly shifts from "Who's got the bandwidth?" to "Who controls the format?"

Interesting... well bandwidth is still a big problem... it costs money to have people see your site. I like some of the ideas you proposed in your article. I remember an email I got after I introduced the dotComics Downloadble player, which pretty much said "If you charge it prepare to see a Napster for comics appear.

I really can't talk about this subject mainly cause I love napster and the idea of free music... especially in cases where I only want one song on the album.

There are other ways to make money off of web content... its just finding it and making it work.

[johnnystorm]

You know, any Flash with real scripting abilities (which I believe would be Flash 4 and onward) should be able to handle some sort of bookmarking thing.

Actually Flash MX encorporates some type of bookmarking feature.

I say, Go, Macromedia, go! No, I'm not getting payed to say that... not that I would mind... but anyway, I LIKE Flash. Have you seen some of the cool Flash pages on the 'net? Hot DAMN.

Yeah http://www.johnnystorm.com is pretty damn cool

I also figured out a way to set my desktop background as a flash file, so now I have a cool clock and a gradient background that changes colors over time. I'm proud of it.

that's pretty cool, probably a pc thing though
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[johnnystorm]

Although Stan Lee dot Com had a lot of other problems that were unrelated to comics or technology. Would have been interesting to see how it might have worked had some of the people behind it (not Stan) been more reliable and less shifty.

I actually liked what they were doing on stanlee.com even if it was a bit tacky.

[gazorenzoku]

I'm really in love with dotComics. For several reasons:

1) While there might be some flaws in the format, it gives some good ideas for people experimenting with online comics (if only to show them what options they don't like). Also, the flaws in and of themselves are a good thing in that they provide a lesson in how not to do it. Other people can learn from the "mistakes"...

2) I want to make some comics for print, but I also want to display those comics on my site. I think there might be a lot of other people like me. dotComics gives some good ideas for how this can be done.

3) Personally, I enjoy the layout/formating.

Now I just have to learn all about Flash, JavaScript, etc....

Vince

[gazorenzoku]

Here are some more thoughts:

1) Covers. Obviously Marvel wants to show the covers to the comics it puts online, but I think it is kind of not necessary. It's all a matter of taste, but I would say no covers for amature online comics is the way to go...

2) I definitely agree with whoever said that the gutters in the dotComics should be black instead of clear. It is strange to see the whole comic floating below the panel(s) you are trying to read.

3) The quality of the art suffers a little bit, especially when you enlarge the browser window. By quality I don't mean how great the original art must have looked, but the pixelization or whatever it is that occurs. Were the comics designed to be viewed on a small window? I understand that download time is a factor, but I have seen better quality amature online comics...

vince

[johnnystorm]

Recently I redesigned the dotComics and encorporated some of the suggested changes. It is a big difference visually, and I look forward to hearing what people think.

The thing about Flash that is so nice in regard to doing comics online centers around the lettering. The process of creating a comic has evolved and is now encorporates a lot of digital processing.

Note: I only have Marvel to use as a reference because I've only worked there.

The process for making a comic was like this:
1. Penciler draws the pages.
2. The pencils are provided to an inker (sometimes in a different state) who then inks the pages.
3. The pages are then provided to a letterer who lettered directly on the board (steps 2 & 3 might be reveresed in some situations)

The process as it exists today or rather what they are moving towards:
1. The penciler draws the pages.
2. The penciler scans the pages, ftps them to a central location.
3. The inker downloads the digital file, prints it out and inks it.
4. The inker scans the inked pages and ftps them to a central location.
5. The B&W scans are sent to the letterer & colorists.
6. The letterer letters the pages using Adobe Illustrator.
7. The colorist colors the book in Adobe Photoshop.
8. The final files are collected and assembled in Quark Xpress.
9. The final book, including cover and ads are converted to a PDF file and digitally transfered to the printer.

In some cases the penciled files are sent directly to the colorist who digitally inks them.
In the case of Alex Maleev everything is digital.

Because the process is so digital, it makes converting it into a Flash based file format so much easier.

In the case of the dotComics the lettering at 100% is unreadable on the screen, so we had to scale it up to 130%. But the beauty of vector based lettering is that it looks perfect at 100% or 1000% so you can scale it without losing any quality.

-JS

[gazorenzoku]

One commercial reason why the dotComics comics are nice is this:

I live in Japan, so it is really hard for me to browse a comics store to see what I like now a days. I usually stick to creators or titles that I like, and sometimes I get recomendations through the net or through friends, but it isn't the same as looking at a comic and deciding to buy it.

With dotCom, I was able to see right away what was inside a bunch of comics, and make a decision based on that. Almost like going to a comic book store.

I think they are great... I also think it is great the creator is here talking about it.

[gazorenzoku]

...Though I did notice that my eyes got tired after looking at them for a while, but I suppose this might be a problem with all digital comics?

vince

[johnnystorm]

I think they are great... I also think it is great the creator is here talking about it.

My pleasure... its nice being able to talk about this... not alot of people like to talk about these things.

...Though I did notice that my eyes got tired after looking at them for a while, but I suppose this might be a problem with all digital comics?

I hate reading things on the screen myself... I am a big fan of print... I usually print things out and read them as opposed to reading them on the screen... but that's the nature of the computer

[gazorenzoku]

If it is possible to change the line art into a vector graphic via Adobe Streamline and then color it in Illustrator, why is the coloring done on Photoshop?

vince

[johnnystorm]

If it is possible to change the line art into a vector graphic via Adobe Streamline and then color it in Illustrator, why is the coloring done on Photoshop?

vince

For print, artwork is not converted to Vector. So Photoshop is used, because Bitmap based images support effects that vector based don't.

The difference between bitmaps and vector is this:
Bitmap images are based on pixels, ie 300dpi (dots per inch). The images rely on pixels to create the images, the higher the dpi, the higher the quality of the images. Marvel prints at 300dpi but stores the images at a higher res 450 or higher. The reason why we keep the images at a higher dpi is so that we have the freedom to scale the images up.

This is why 72 dpi images (screen resolution) pixelate when you zoom in on them.

Vector images (illustrator, freehand, flash, streamline) create images based on mathematical formulas. Vector images are simply documents that store point information... meaning the document says that this image of a box has a line from this x,y position to that x,y position. Since the information is all mathmatical based it can retain its quality when scaled either up or down.

But vector images do not support certain effects like drop shadows and lens flairs and some of the other effects that digital colorists like to use.

One of the nice things of Flash is that you can color directly in it, and much easier. So you can import the images into flash, color them and then export them as an adobe illustrator file. Flash is a remarkable program.

-js

[gazorenzoku]

So Photoshop is used, because Bitmap based images support effects that vector based don't...vector images do not support certain effects like drop shadows and lens flairs and some of the other effects that digital colorists like to use.

I see... At this point, I would definitely trade drop shadows and lens flairs, and pretty much any other effect for the ability to enlarge the image without pixelization. But I can see why others wouldn't, though.

One of the nice things of Flash is that you can color directly in it, and much easier. So you can import the images into flash, color them and then export them as an adobe illustrator file. Flash is a remarkable program.

Is Flash also vector based?

[johnnystorm]

I redesigned the dotComics, and encorportated a lot of the suggestions made here. The Wagon #1 and Eden's Trail both use the new format. An undocumented feature:

Use Spacebar to advance & left & right arrow keys to go forward and backwards pages.

Aside from obvious redesign new features include:

Ability to grow to full screen and back again.
Automatic progression through pages.
Larger images, images are now 130% to match the lettering.

I am curious to hear what people have to say about the changes.

-js